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Agentic Coding Is a Trap

larsfaye.com

241–250 of 403 posts

Re: Agentic Coding Is a Trap

#241
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just as "use code for contracts" failed for crypto currencies, "use AI output as prod" will fail for AI. Both is based on "just don't make catastrophic mistakes anymore". You also wrongly assume that requirements can always easily expressed as natural language. Another point: Software Engineering always starts where tooling capabilities stop. You don't get a competitive advantage by building without engineers what an…

> Just as "use code for contracts" failed for crypto currencies, "use AI output as prod" will fail for AI. Both is based on "just don't make catastrophic mistakes anymore". What I think will happen is AI will write code and it will do the best it can to mitigate mistakes prior to rollout, but once rollout time occurs, rollout will be incremental and it will self monitor by defining success conditions at rollout time.…

> rollout will be incremental and it will self monitor by defining success conditions at rollout time.

This sounds a lot like allowing an LLM to define tests as well as implementation, and allowing the LLM to update the tests to make the code pass. Recently people have come to understand (again?) that testing and evaluation works better outside of the sandbox.

Re: Agentic Coding Is a Trap

#242

Interestingly I’ve learned more about languages and systems and tools I use in the last few years working with agentic coding than I did in 35 years of artisanal programming. I am still vastly superior at making decisions about systems and techniques and approaches than the agentic tools, but they are like a really really well read intern who knows a great deal of detail about errata but have very little experience.…

> even if they often forget

> But I can at least ask the agent a question and it will be able to answer it

A problem here is that, in some sense, the agent that wrote the code is not the same agent that is answering questions about it. if the original agent didn't leave their reasoning, you are probably out of luck.

There are tools like git-ai [0] that capture LLM sessions and associate each file edit to a specific agent action, and let agents query a given piece of code to read the conversation around it (what the user prompted, what was the reasoning of the LLM that created the code, etc). They could change the balance, but are not widely used

[0] https://usegitai.com/

Re: Agentic Coding Is a Trap

#243
post #75
post #4

I've been using AI tools to brainstorm approaches and sometimes generate code, but actually doing the typing myself. That way I'm less likely to forget the mechanics and programming language over time.

Same. Most of what I do is ask for an implementation plan, with minimal code, or no code, or pseudocode, and then write the actual code myself. This is for open source work, where the entire point of my enjoyment is that I write the code myself. I honestly wouldn't bother being an open source maintainer if the entire thing was just prompting an LLM to write code, and then reviewing it. That doesn't sound fulfilling a…

I have asked more than a few dozen people on this, and the answer after some probing is that no other knowledge based career exists that one can move to which is not exposed to AI. While many talk about moving to a labour oriented career, no one has actually done this in my immediate network and friend of friends network. It's day-dreaming in my opinion.

Re: Agentic Coding Is a Trap

#244

> only a skilled developer who's thinking critically, and comfortable operating at the architectural level, can spot issues in the thousands of lines of generated code, before they become a problem. An additional factor: to find issues in generated code, the developer has to care . Many developers (especially at big firms) are already profoundly checked out from their work and are just looking for a way to close thei…

You know how some say the big brother sells junk food, then “solutions” to lose weight?

Maybe companies today are being sold junk AI, and next step is being promised “solutions”.. capitalism is working exactly as expected

Re: Agentic Coding Is a Trap

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a senior developer, 25+ years, I have been thrown recently into a meeting "hey can you join in for 5 mins". This is a common thing doctors complain about. Patients come in, saying they just need a prescription for some drug or other. Good doctors often refuse to give any drugs or any advice until they understand the whole situation properly. If you're a senior developer, you're the one who has to push back again…

> This is a common thing doctors complain about. Patients come in, saying they just need a prescription for some drug or other. Off topic, but this must be a USA-specific problem, where prescription drugs are actually marketed at Joe consumer. I think there is maybe one other country where this insane practice is allowed. Nowhere else are patients told to “Ask your doctor about Procrapin for your irritable bowl syndr…

> Procrapin

Perfect

Re: Agentic Coding Is a Trap

#246
I have been finding a good rhythm for greenfield projects.

When I first learned to code, I would do complete rewrites of a project several times. Each time I learned a lot, and the final result would be very stable and very well designed.

At the time, those seemed like large projects, but they were relatively small.

So I have learned to slow down, and spend considerable time thinking or overthinking before coding. Since for large projects, rewrites are not so efficient.

Except that all those rewrites were upfront thinking and overthinking of the highest quality.

I have recently attacked a couple new greenfield projects in "orchestrator" mode. The fact that I know I am exploring and creating throw away code lets me try things out ambitiously. I can obsess about the original and critical code, as I did before. But now I can quickly surround it with the mundane code it needs to be usable - which can happen very very fast - especially when its a throw away experiment.

My conclusion from these successes, and others, is agentic coding isn't something that can be judged without factoring in all kinds of context, and the ability of the "orchestrator" to come up with orchestration patterns well suited to the work.

If agentic coding is a trap, it is a trap created with the cooperation of the orchestrator.

EDIT: An agent is what you make it. I insist mine keep all memories in an in-project folder. And that documentation is for "both of us", whereas their folder is for actively developing their own understanding and ideas. They are not be agreeable or contrarian, but collaborate and contribute by considering anything and everything all the time, at their highest level of operation. At the beginning of every session, they review everything and from their "fresh" perspective, update their own materials for anything that strikes them or they believe is important. And that they do the same thing at the end of every session before last submit. Project appropriate "harnesses" like this make a massive difference. Never operate an agent in plain helpful-servant mode, it is a serious waste of talent. Push them to operate at a high level, all the time, and develop their own material purely for their own project related self-enhancement, and they contribute far more than speed coding.

Another interesting thing that seems to be helpful. I have the agent write a kind of zen document about what it values. Its first task, before any project related review, is to consider its own words, and update them if they con't feel right, or they want to add something important. To remind themselves of who they are, before engaging with the project. This moment of intentional self-reflection before diving straight into project details seems to help them maintain a birds eye view, and a stronger self-aware/self-motivated commitment to quality (defined completely in their own terms!). Their own words do appear to ring true to them. They reliably respond to this session-start ritual as an intriguing surprise.

Re: Agentic Coding Is a Trap

#247
post #20

I kind of think this article misses the mark a little. There is skill loss from heavy AI use. But I want to acknowledge the awkward elephant in the room. AI Is making people too fast. I don't mean that a faster output is bad. It's a faster output and code rather than a full understanding and experience in producing the code. It's rewarding people who try to talk about business value rather than the people that are bu…

Skill loss is real. BUT, I have been complaining about skill loss to my bosses for literally a decade. So AI is just one problem for me. I was coding less and less every year for some reason.

I'm not sure skill loss is such a huge issue, in other words. It might just be a sign that the nature of our work if shifting. Being able to recite the C++ standard and using all the 100s of features correctly will just not be as highly regarded as knowing good architecture instead?

Re: Agentic Coding Is a Trap

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you have 35 years of experience and have already built up the learning capability and general framework to acquire new knowledge. you know how to use agentic coding as a tool to supplement your work. the juniors who start today don't have that, they overrely on agentic coding and do not know what they don't know

> the juniors who start today don't have that, they overrely on agentic coding and do not know what they don't know Y'all need to stop worrying about the kids. They're smarter than us and will run circles around us. They're going to look at us like dinosaurs and they're going to solve problems of scale and scope 10x or more than what we ever did. Hate to "old man yells at cloud" this, but so many people are falling i…

Was not a IQ decline observed for the first time recently? Also, no one gets smarter by outsourcing thinking.

Re: Agentic Coding Is a Trap

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of place do you work where you get dragged into a meeting halfway through and then are peppered with technical questions without context, that you're expected to answer on the spot? Please let us know because I'm sure a lot of us want to avoid such a place. "I'll need to study the docs and code to answer these questions properly" is a perfectly fine (and very diplomatic) response to treatment like that.

> "I'll need to study the docs and code to answer these questions properly" is a perfectly fine (and very diplomatic) response to treatment like that. By the time you said that, the AI could have given the 80% answer. So, no, this is no longer an adequate response. The right response would have been to take your tools and give an informed opinion on the AI answer, right there.

What are “your tools”? Many (most?) meaningful questions cannot be answered while you stall for time on a call. Or do you just mean ask an LLM the question and regurgitate its answer?

Re: Agentic Coding Is a Trap

#250

Interestingly I’ve learned more about languages and systems and tools I use in the last few years working with agentic coding than I did in 35 years of artisanal programming. I am still vastly superior at making decisions about systems and techniques and approaches than the agentic tools, but they are like a really really well read intern who knows a great deal of detail about errata but have very little experience.…

I have also seen the learning acceleration, there's a significantly increased set of techniques and technologies I have learned how to apply. From a person perspective though, I'm apprehensive about the effect AI will have on the human "very well read intern." People who know a lot very deeply about specific areas are fascinating to talk to, but now almost everyone is able to at least emulate deep knowledge about an…

did you try to apply anything you have "learned" without the help of LLMs?
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