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U.S. to Withdraw 5k Troops from Germany, Pentagon Says

nytimes.com

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Re: U.S. to Withdraw 5k Troops from Germany, Pentagon Says

#51
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The claim that literally blowing up vast quantities of money has been good for America is an extraordinary one that requires extraordinary evidence If you change “America” to “the American Military Industrial Complex”, then the claim is self-evident. There are some that equate those two.

Division of the spoils is not up to the outside.

It’s not just division of the spoils. It’s a transfer of wealth to defense contractors at the cost of a dead weight loss to the country as a whole.

Re: U.S. to Withdraw 5k Troops from Germany, Pentagon Says

#52
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The claim that literally blowing up vast quantities of money has been good for America is an extraordinary one that requires extraordinary evidence. So, if I understand you right you fail to see what a lasting peace and good relationship with allies will do for the country that brokers that peace and you require 'extraordinary evidence' because it is an extraordinary claim? Next up you're going to say that the USA…

I don’t think this issue is so settled that you just get to say “research it yourself” instead of making your case. Whether the global empire makes America as a whole richer or poorer is highly disputed. And it’s not just the distribution of the spoils as you say. The longstanding view of Americans opposed to the empire has been that the empire enriches defense contractors, but is a deadweight loss for the country as…

> The longstanding view of Americans opposed to the empire has been that the empire enriches defense contractors, but is a deadweight loss for the country as a whole.

And they are right, but for the wrong reasons: yes, the MIC enriches defense contractors. That's obvious. But that's because that is how it is all set up and it need not be set up that way, that's a conscious choice by a lot of the actors. From outside of the USA that's an internal discussion, not one that we have influence on or that we directly experience the impact of. You could of course decide to raise the minimum wage, offer free health care and start treating drug abuse like a disease or a mental issue rather than as a criminal affair. But oh gollies, that sounds like socialism, and we can't have that, better if the poor stay poor and don't have any bargaining power.

> But the goal isn’t to be a superpower. The goal is to be rich.

You can't be rich as a country without having the power to stay rich unless you are a little mountain region country or riding on the coat tails of a country that is. You will need to protect your supply lines if you are an actor in a globalized world. So you have to become that country if you want to stay independent, and want to be supplied with the goods that you depend on. Alternatively you could sign a mutual defense pact but then you're right back where you started...

Some Americans are richer, just like my friend just outside of LA who drives a Ferrari. He only drives it on his own grounds (which he has plenty of) because the road that his estate borders on is so bad that he would wreck his car if he drove it and while he's wealthy he is not so wealthy that he can afford to maintain a large chunk of the local infrastructure.

Personally, I'd rather have a more modest car and a better road outside of my own grounds (or even a bike path...), and a more modest gap between the rich and the poor as well as between the rich and the middle class and the poor and the middle class.

America has had the option to spread its riches to the people but instead had the people rack up ever larger debt whilst pampering the lucky few. That works - for a while - but in the end it sets the stage for a confrontation between the haves and the have nots. The MAGA movement is ultimately a mis-direction effort to do a smash and grab to make the rich a lot richer still because the clock is running out. It's a bit like the sheep voting for the wolves, they talk so convincing, we should at least give them a chance.

What's for dinner you said?

Re: U.S. to Withdraw 5k Troops from Germany, Pentagon Says

#53
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Pax Americana was a massive net positive for the United States. The claim that literally blowing up vast quantities of money has been good for America is an extraordinary one that requires extraordinary evidence. Instead, this is a statement that’s just asserted without much proof behind it. Proponents of this theory are making a “wet streets cause rain” fallacy. America was already the world’s economic superpower…

> The claim that literally blowing up vast quantities of money has been good for America is an extraordinary one that requires extraordinary evidence. So, if I understand you right you fail to see what a lasting peace and good relationship with allies will do for the country that brokers that peace and you require 'extraordinary evidence' because it is an extraordinary claim? Next up you're going to say that the USA…

> I understand you right you fail to see what a lasting peace and good relationship with allies will do for the country that brokers that peace and you require 'extraordinary evidence' because it is an extraordinary claim? Next up you're going to say that the USA should have never joined World War II or created the Marshall plan in the immediate aftermath, that's a logical extension of that argument since that's universally seen as the launch of 'Pax Americana'.

I don't agree with him a lot of the time but I think his request is reasonable and I share his skepticism about the idea that US military presence and interventions are somehow beneficial to the American's wellbeing, both the median American and the polity as a whole.

why should i not be skeptical? the first order effects of military are inherently destructive - why should i assume that having more military makes anyones lives better? its not obvious at all and requires a better explanation IMO.

Re: U.S. to Withdraw 5k Troops from Germany, Pentagon Says

#54
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The claim that literally blowing up vast quantities of money has been good for America is an extraordinary one that requires extraordinary evidence. So, if I understand you right you fail to see what a lasting peace and good relationship with allies will do for the country that brokers that peace and you require 'extraordinary evidence' because it is an extraordinary claim? Next up you're going to say that the USA…

> I understand you right you fail to see what a lasting peace and good relationship with allies will do for the country that brokers that peace and you require 'extraordinary evidence' because it is an extraordinary claim? Next up you're going to say that the USA should have never joined World War II or created the Marshall plan in the immediate aftermath, that's a logical extension of that argument since that's univ…

Yes, you are right that the first order effects of the military are inherently destructive, that's why you should use them with restraint. In that sense the military is no different than other tools: use with caution and read the manual first.

But that has nothing to do with ill advised adventures of conquest, it has everything to do with mutual defense. Not to put too fine a point on it: it has nothing to do with invading Iraq or Iran because you feel like you have been given an excuse to do that which you've been hungry for. Gulf war I was somewhat justified (it really was defense), episode II was bonkers, Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan and lots of others were not a good use of the military from the start, and we can debate over the effectiveness of the outcome for many reasons.

More military does not make anyone's lives better if you use them to invade. But mutual defense is a very useful thing in a multi polar world. If you can trust your partners to not suddenly go 'might makes right'.

Re: U.S. to Withdraw 5k Troops from Germany, Pentagon Says

#55
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Division of the spoils is not up to the outside.

It’s not just division of the spoils. It’s a transfer of wealth to defense contractors at the cost of a dead weight loss to the country as a whole.

So, it looks like you have your work cut out for you then: how to make sure that America as a whole profits from its exports rather than just a select few individuals. Because if you toss out the concept of weapons exports as a whole because you are turning inwards then you're going to have to find a lot of people in the job queues.

Re: U.S. to Withdraw 5k Troops from Germany, Pentagon Says

#56
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think this issue is so settled that you just get to say “research it yourself” instead of making your case. Whether the global empire makes America as a whole richer or poorer is highly disputed. And it’s not just the distribution of the spoils as you say. The longstanding view of Americans opposed to the empire has been that the empire enriches defense contractors, but is a deadweight loss for the country as…

> The longstanding view of Americans opposed to the empire has been that the empire enriches defense contractors, but is a deadweight loss for the country as a whole. And they are right, but for the wrong reasons: yes, the MIC enriches defense contractors. That's obvious. But that's because that is how it is all set up and it need not be set up that way, that's a conscious choice by a lot of the actors. From outside…

> You can't be rich as a country without having the power to stay rich unless you are a little mountain region country or riding on the coat tails of a country that is.

Countries become rich because of stable, competent institutions, not because they can maintain a military empire.

Ireland, Singapore are both examples of this.

> You will need to protect your supply lines if you are an actor in a globalized world. So you have to become that country if you want to stay independent, and want to be supplied with the goods that you depend on.

Protect supply lines from whom? how are military bases in Turkey, Germany, Poland, etc protecting "supply lines"?

one of the most important supply lines for europe (hydrocarbons from russia) has been stifled for the past 4 years - why havent our bases or military been able to keep it open?

similarly, why are our numerous bases in Middle East failing to protect supply lines?

i would argue that in both those cases, our aggressive military expansion (nato, israel expansion + gulf bases) caused the closure of those critical supply lines.

Re: U.S. to Withdraw 5k Troops from Germany, Pentagon Says

#57
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The longstanding view of Americans opposed to the empire has been that the empire enriches defense contractors, but is a deadweight loss for the country as a whole. And they are right, but for the wrong reasons: yes, the MIC enriches defense contractors. That's obvious. But that's because that is how it is all set up and it need not be set up that way, that's a conscious choice by a lot of the actors. From outside…

> You can't be rich as a country without having the power to stay rich unless you are a little mountain region country or riding on the coat tails of a country that is. Countries become rich because of stable, competent institutions, not because they can maintain a military empire. Ireland, Singapore are both examples of this. > You will need to protect your supply lines if you are an actor in a globalized world. So…

> Ireland, Singapore are both examples of this.

Sure, if you ignore all of their history...

> Protect supply lines from whom? how are military bases in Turkey, Germany, Poland, etc protecting "supply lines"?

Because they are on friendly territory that remains friendly on account of that. Mutual defense again, coupled with some more history. Why do you think the USA wants to use its bases in Europe for the war against Iran?

> i would argue that in both those cases, our aggressive military expansion (nato, israel expansion + gulf bases) caused the closure of those critical supply lines.

NATO is not 'aggressive military expansion' even though Trump seems to think it should be. As for Israel, that really is a US problem, Israel in part became the belligerent that it is today because it has been shielded and supported militarily well beyond defense. This is going to cause trouble for at least another century, maybe more.

Re: U.S. to Withdraw 5k Troops from Germany, Pentagon Says

#58
post #14
post #12

Good. It’s not 1945 anymore, we don’t need to keep occupying Germany.

now Germany has a choice - to spend hundreds of billions for conventionally armed military to defend itself and still face risks of war or just a few billions to develop and produce nukes (using already existing Pu from the power plants) and have everlasting peace. Germans are rational people as i heard.

The nuke is a tricky thing: deterring many scenarios like a full scale invasion, but a risk of mutual suicide when the enemy also has it. As a matter of fact it does not stop from "hybrid war", there are so many possibilities to harm a country (disorganize society, promote a friendly leader, attack critical infrastructures,...). So having nukes certainly increases security in many cases but is not sufficient to have everlasting peace !
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