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AI uses less water than the public thinks

californiawaterblog.com

391–400 of 425 posts

Re: AI uses less water than the public thinks

#391

> Using the prompt, “How much water is likely to evaporate from data centers in California per year, assuming they are all using mostly evaporative cooling?” several free AI websites provided ranges of estimates, below. These AI also can provide ranges and sources for calculation assumptions. Data centers with closed loop cooling systems are absolutely built all of the time. Total evaporative cooling has the advantag…

Not even industrial, I remember someone asking, what's the heaviest thing you can buy per dollar. And someone ran the math, somewhere it's like $20 for a full swimming pool on the expensive side.

Re: AI uses less water than the public thinks

#392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you not read that the effect was directly tied to “Individuals living within water service areas” in my original comment? Yeah no shit it’s pesticides. They’re seeping into the water supply from the golf course runoff. Datacenters expel water filled with all kinds of heavy metals and other kinds of toxic sludge. https://www.datacenterknowledge.com/sustainability/4-strateg... It should be pretty obvious the parall…

It is in fact not obvious what parallel you're drawing here. What parts of this study do you find especially credible, methodologically?

Where did you get your PHD?

Re: AI uses less water than the public thinks

#393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The premise of your link is founded on the energy associated to with a single prompt. The source in your link for that energy claim links to a blog post that then links back to an earlier blog post from the original author of the link you provided (it's basically a circular reference). Basically, there's a lot of words in your initial link, but they all hinge on the readers taken the stated energy assumption for a si…

>The source in your link for that energy claim links to a blog post that then links back to an earlier blog post from the original author of the link you provided (it's basically a circular reference). Huh? The latter blog post does link to the former's blog, but not as a source for that claim. It cites an Altman blog, an estimate from EpochAI, an article in the MIT Technology Review (albeit one that estimates 3x hig…

Order of operations:

1) I click your link

2) I click the link associated with the 0.3 Wh of energy claim in the section "The full cost of a prompt".

3) The link from 2) takes me to a blog post from Hannah Ritchie. In Hannah's post, I click a link associated with the following excerpt:

"Third, as a result, more recent estimates suggested that the assumptions I relied on (h/t to Andy Masley’s work on this) — that one standard query used 3 watt-hours (Wh) of electricity — were possibly an order of magnitude too high. In this case, I was happy to be conservative and overestimate the energy use."

4) This link takes me to the author of your original post, but earlier.

None of this quantifies cost per token, which is really the much more relevant metric than whatever a "cost per text based query" means => which I think is both quite broad and quite model dependent.

Re: AI uses less water than the public thinks

#394
post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This causes major market distortions and worse outcomes than the econ 101 solution. The problem is that water isn't traded on a normal market at all. Lots of people have historical water rights and pay nearly nothing for their water use. There's byzantine regulation and many have the right to use for some purpose on their land but not to resell, so the market cannot allocate to more efficient use. If you just let the…

The 101 level solution means that Native Americans who were granted water rights by the Spanish, and guaranteed those rights by US treaties, would have to outbid urban users in order to grow subsistence crops. The heavy users have more influence over the laws which govern the infrastructure, as the history of water rights in the West clearly shows. We see it now when secretive organizations negotiate with water compa…

These all seem fine in a normal market?

If the Native Americans have water rights, they can also sell them. They can choose to use it inefficiently on subsistence farming, or they could sell at the going rate. A normal market itself doesn't imply any particular allocation of water rights, just that they should be as fungible and transferable as possible.

Why are the laws that govern the infrastructure particularly important? It only matters now because its a tangle of regulation. Yes, big users can often get bulk discounts or other special arrangements by committing to use. This happens in many areas.

There's no law governing what products my grocery store must carry. Yet, I can still choose a store with many things I like, at affordable prices. My store may (and frequently does) exclude all products containing some chemical considered harmful even if it isn't banned. Of course, water has more of a natural monopoly problem, but that's more for last mile infrastructure and not broader supply.

I don't understand the details of the riparian vs prior appropriation doctrine. How does this create an issue? If the water rights are defined somehow, in a usage-independent way, only in terms of the net water removal, to account for runoff from local use, and the water from them can be traded, then a market can work regardless of the specific nature of the right.

Any association holding the rights could allocate its water internally as it sees fit. Just like any other asset? Or it could decide to sell it and distribute the money instead- perhaps even better for fairness to it's members!

Re: AI uses less water than the public thinks

#395
post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heavier commercial trucks that run on diesel tend to cause more damage. Scales with roughly 4th power of axle load.

That's a bad argument. There are gasoline trucks with a GVWR of ~20,000 pounds and diesel cars that weigh less than a Honda Accord. If you actually wanted to do that then you'd instead do something like tax based on axle weight and miles traveled, e.g. by reading the odometer during inspections. The better argument is that diesel is worse for air quality and then it's a pigouvian tax in proportion to how much you bur…

> diesel cars that weigh less than a Honda Accord.

It is taxed less than gas in lots of Europe where that is more common. You also need to factor in mpg vs gas, where it is higher, so more road-wear pCO2 was part of the debate in Europe, even though it is longer carbon chain so worse co2 ratio per calorie, the engines are more efficient. Diesel is worse for local air, better for long term co2.

There are a mixture of factors and lobbying behind the differencs, road wear is one. Farm fuel with no road wear isn't taxed much at all in lots of places and is more often diesel.

Re: AI uses less water than the public thinks

#396
post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are a deeply unserious person :'D

You are insinuating that a fight against tech giants is the preferable option regarding pollution and I'm unserious??

The effects of the tech giants encroachment of society and the stakes and gravity of the situation is so serious that some people think its important not to allow attempts to frame the struggle as Sisyphean to succeed.

Re: AI uses less water than the public thinks

#397
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all of us. I'm totally fine with water pipelines in exchange for long distance transmission lines for solar power and other such infrastructure like gas pipelines from areas that produce stuff we do not. Export an abundant resource for a scarcer one seems win/win to me. Kind of the point of interstate commerce.

Long term, fresh water as a resource is in decline [0]. [0] https://science.nasa.gov/earth/earth-observatory/global-fres...

DCs could desal all of their cooling water from saltwater and it would still pencil. (So could residential water, for that matter.)

Re: AI uses less water than the public thinks

#398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is in fact not obvious what parallel you're drawing here. What parts of this study do you find especially credible, methodologically?

Where did you get your PHD?

That play works if you are in fact a PhD in a related field, but not if we're both reading the same study as laypersons and disputing its relevance and reliability.

What I suspect happened here is that you found this study by Googling for it, and forgot that it is in fact very easy to get a capsule summary of any published study posted on HN.

Re: AI uses less water than the public thinks

#399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That water is free. It’s called rain.

So when there is no rain you let the cattle die? Feed on other people's land? By that logic even server's water can come from rain. > Around 14 percent of the 3 670 km3 of freshwater withdrawn each year for the irrigation of crops and pasture is allocated to produce feed items for livestock [1]: https://openknowledge.fao.org/server/api/core/bitstreams/a7f...

Yes, drought often results in the death of livestock.
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