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Ron Paul’s Farewell Address: The Internet Can Stop Big Government

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Re: Ron Paul’s Farewell Address: The Internet Can Stop Big Government

#191

Post by tzs »

snitko wrote: post #38
astrodust wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is Ron Paul is a crazy guy. He's trying to rigorously apply principles from the 1700s to today's world. He's not willing to compromise in the face of evidence that contradicts his firmly held opinions. I've studied Libertarianism to the point of finding out that, not unlike other extremist philosophies, it's too far-fetched to ever work. People are too "human" for Libertarianism to ever work. It's too eas…

I challenge you to give me one very specific example of how something is not going to work in a libertarian world and I'm going right here right now to prove you how it actually would work. (because, with all due respect, I think writing comments that basically say "it's not gonna work because it's puppies and rainbows" is not helping us find out the truth).

> I challenge you to give me one very specific example of how something is not going to work in a libertarian world and I'm going right here right now to prove you how it actually would work

What do you mean by "libertarian world"? Libertarianism is a spectrum, so it's hard to give examples without knowing what specific kind of libertarian world we are discussing.

For instance, there are some libertarians who say there should be NO government. Everything should be handled by markets and private property rights. To those libertarians, my example would be dealing with crime. For instance, suppose you come home and find that a crime has been committed against you--perhaps something of yours has been stolen, or a family member has been killed.

You call a police company (one of many competing private police companies) and hire them to investigate the crime. As part of their investigation, they determine that they would like to talk to me, and that they believe important evidence is in my house.

When they knock on my door and ask to search my house, I'm going to tell them to go away (and I'm going to back that request with force--both my own guns, and the guns of the private police force I have hired to keep trespassers off my land).

Oops. With no government, who issues search warrants and provides the force to execute them?

I've seen various attempts to resolve this problem, but none that would actually work, where by "work" I mean achieve the outcome that they are intended to achieve.

Re: Ron Paul’s Farewell Address: The Internet Can Stop Big Government

#192

Post by praxeologist »

hazov wrote: post #175
praxeologist wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Let's analyze this situation with some economic rigor. What you're invoking is Coase's theorem. You're attacking a strawman, and I said nothing about the Coase theorem. For some criticism of Coase by a libertarian economist see here from page 4 of the PDF: http://mises.org/rothbard/lawproperty.pdf I said, "Pollution would be treated as a tort." Nothing really special there because all rights violations would be, viz…

Rothbard is not exactly an libertarian economist he is an Austrian school economist, not every libertarian is an Austrian school economist. Although I'm sympathetic to libertarianism I loathe the Austrian school because of their unscientific methods. No need to answer to me about that, it's only my belief and of some others in the libertarian camp, Bryan Caplan for example. My main problem with Ron Paul besides the f…

Rothbard is clearly a libertarian economist and I never said that all "libertarian" economists must be Austrians. You might want to not talk about things being unscientific when you fail to back up your assertions.

It has been fashionable since the success of the natural sciences in the 1800's to attempt to apply the methods of the natural sciences to the social sciences. Concepts like "equilibrium" are applied incorrectly because a person goes on to striving for the next thing right after achieving the first and markets are in a constant flux.

On why mathematical economics is a failure, see here: http://mises.org/daily/3540

Re: Ron Paul’s Farewell Address: The Internet Can Stop Big Government

#193

Post by snitko »

tzs wrote: post #183
snitko wrote: post #33

What makes me sad is that a lot of people, even here, discharge Ron Paul as some sort of crazy guy without even listening to what he says. In comments to this post "thesagan" wrote that some of his ideas are "batshit crazy" as if his ideology is composed of many different unrelated parts. Not true, Ron Paul ideas are ideas of libertarianism and if you study them diligent enough, you'll eventually be used to thinking…

Let's listen to some things Paul says and does: • Has no clue how the banking system works. Even the Cato Institute called him "incoherent". http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/dec/... • To lower the cost of health care he says we need to increase competition by increasing the availability of quack medicine (specifically homeopathic medicine) over science-based medicine. http://www.ronpaul.com/200…

So, he's crazy because he doesn't want to regulate things. You believe homeopathy is bullshit - fine, I agree with you. We can campaign against it and inform people it's bullshit. But you and I have no rights to tell people what to believe and how to spend their money.

I would like to specifically talk about climate change, though. I don't want to question the legitimacy of the claims that it's happening - to the best of my knowledge it is. However, people somehow assume it's definitely a bad thing, which is simply not true. Climate may indeed change in one place and make life of people more difficult, while it may also change in another place and make life more prosperous there. No scientists I know of can predict what effects exactly and on which places climate change is going to have. It seems to me, people who are afraid of climate change simply want to preserve the status quo. Not a bad thing - everybody wants to protect their life and assets. But we must recognize it for that - an attempt to preserve the status quo, not save the planet for the greater good.

Back to Ron Paul: he may not be the guy I can agree 100% of the time on everything, but then you can never do that with anyone. Before trying to assess why he voted for this or that, one should understand the reasons why he did so. For instance, he voted against net neutrality, but not because he believed internet shouldn't be free - he believed the government itself cannot make it free, but competition can.

Re: Ron Paul’s Farewell Address: The Internet Can Stop Big Government

#194

Post by hazov »

praxeologist wrote: post #192
hazov wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rothbard is not exactly an libertarian economist he is an Austrian school economist, not every libertarian is an Austrian school economist. Although I'm sympathetic to libertarianism I loathe the Austrian school because of their unscientific methods. No need to answer to me about that, it's only my belief and of some others in the libertarian camp, Bryan Caplan for example. My main problem with Ron Paul besides the f…

Rothbard is clearly a libertarian economist and I never said that all "libertarian" economists must be Austrians. You might want to not talk about things being unscientific when you fail to back up your assertions. It has been fashionable since the success of the natural sciences in the 1800's to attempt to apply the methods of the natural sciences to the social sciences. Concepts like "equilibrium" are applied incor…

I said I have no interest of discussing anymore. I'm not here to build a thread pointing failures in first order logic in other comments, this was my opinion and it would be better if you just accept that I do not believe in the same things as you.

If you wish there are plenty of refutations of why the criticism of Austrian school about modern economics is misdirected, I believe pretty much of them do a good job, Bryan Caplan was right in almost everything, you need not to accept any of them of course, I respect you, but you'll need to know that I do not accept anything that comes from mises.org and do not read them anymore.

Re: Ron Paul’s Farewell Address: The Internet Can Stop Big Government

#195

Post by tzs »

snitko wrote: post #193
tzs wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's listen to some things Paul says and does: • Has no clue how the banking system works. Even the Cato Institute called him "incoherent". http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/dec/... • To lower the cost of health care he says we need to increase competition by increasing the availability of quack medicine (specifically homeopathic medicine) over science-based medicine. http://www.ronpaul.com/200…

So, he's crazy because he doesn't want to regulate things. You believe homeopathy is bullshit - fine, I agree with you. We can campaign against it and inform people it's bullshit. But you and I have no rights to tell people what to believe and how to spend their money. I would like to specifically talk about climate change, though. I don't want to question the legitimacy of the claims that it's happening - to the bes…

None of what you say about climate change is an argument for ignoring it, which is what Paul wanted the USDA to do.

Re: Ron Paul’s Farewell Address: The Internet Can Stop Big Government

#196

Post by ThomPete »

ac132 wrote: post #184
ThomPete wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a big difference between digitally world and the physical world. Ignoring that is the biggest mistake that is being made here.

Seriously? You don't think it's possible for 3rd party accreditation firms to exist in the physical world? Have a look at: http://www.bbb.org/

The discussion is way way bigger than that.

Re: Ron Paul’s Farewell Address: The Internet Can Stop Big Government

#197

Post by wyclif »

Steko wrote: post #187
wyclif wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Getting red of the Fed is crazy? Wow. And a lot of those aren't policies, you know. You still haven't told me what policies I wrote about above are objectionable to you, and not preferable to the status quo. You like the drug war? NDAA? Patriot Act? Massive debt and unfunded liabilities? Corporate welfare and bank bailouts? Constant war and policing of the globe? Secret kill lists? FBI raids of dairy farmers? Renditi…

"Getting red of the Fed is crazy?" Yes, it's bananas crazy. Fiat money won everywhere because it outcompeted the gold standard just like mixed economies won everywhere because they outcompeted libertarianism. The story is the same for every single frontier town in the us, brazil and every other country -- more government or ghost town. "And a lot of those aren't policies, you know. " Those are all policy positions. P…

The "feudalism" charge, as well as the Randian one, proves to me that you've got no bloody clue what you're talking about, either about Paul himself or economic theory. Paul is a disciple of the Austrian school and von Mises, not Rand's Objectivism. But those distinctions are lost on you and prove how little you know.

But it really doesn't matter much now, because this thread has dropped off the front page, so your ignorance and your advocacy of Federalism (and the federalistas who enforce it) can't poison the well.

Perhaps you should get back to me after you've read the books and are ready to engage in a real debate on the issues, but at this point you're wasting my time.

Re: Ron Paul’s Farewell Address: The Internet Can Stop Big Government

#199

Post by CamperBob2 »

mkr-hn wrote: post #189
praxeologist wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Windows' monopoly relies upon state-granted monopoly powers (patent/copyright). http://archive.mises.org/17366/apple-vs-microsoft-which-bene...

The entire PC compatible movement would have been crushed by IBM mercenaries going garage-to-garage in a free market fantasy land. Bill Gates, coming from a wealthy family, would be the only one who could afford his own mercenaries.

Nobody asked about what "would" have happened. That's what I meant by goalpost-moving.

Re: Ron Paul’s Farewell Address: The Internet Can Stop Big Government

#200

Post by CamperBob2 »

Steko wrote: post #171
CamperBob2 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He rephrased his question, and he shouldn't have, because his original one works pretty well. Can you name a single instance of a harmful monopoly that didn't either form or persist because of government backing? No goalpost-moving this time.

Are you claiming that no one has ever possessed a local monopoly on a resource that produced negative consumer effects? Pretty laughable claim and clearly false on hundreds of thousands of counts. Or are you ready to turn your back on basic property rights as an evil cooked up by the big bad gubmint?

Are you claiming that no one has ever possessed a local monopoly on a resource that produced negative consumer effects?

Such monopolies either (a) aren't really monopolies, despite people whining that they are; (b) don't last; or (c) have to be backed with collective force of some sort.

Pretty laughable claim and clearly false on hundreds of thousands of counts.

Then I'm sure you'll have no problem naming a few, in between the guffaws.

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