Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ron Paul’s Farewell Address: The Internet Can Stop Big Government

techcrunch.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

131–140 of 231 posts

Re: Ron Paul’s Farewell Address: The Internet Can Stop Big Government

#131

Post by snitko »

scarmig wrote: post #113
snitko wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, so if you say the likely equilibrium is no violence at all, what's bad about it? If violence-suppliers form a cartel and people are happy about the way it serves them - what's wrong with that? If some become unhappy, they do 2 things: stop paying their monthly fees and seek a new company to protect them (which will inevitably emerge, because there's a demand). On a side note, libertarians call violence supplier…

I think this is getting to semantics, but revealing semantics. I would say a situation where "violence-suppliers form a cartel and people are happy about the way it serves them" to be a wordy way of saying the State. And the same agglomerating forces that lead to a cartel in the first place make it difficult for another violence-supplier to appear: if it offers a better deal to customers than what the cartel is offer…

It's a valid argument that private protection agencies may become de-facto government. With one crucial distinction: no one's giving them any legitimacy to be one. If they point guns to people, people are free to organize themselves and fight or hire somebody else to fight for them. Either way, it would put a cost on the protection agency. And as we determined, it is always more costly to fight than to strike a deal, even if you're stronger. Wouldn't you agree then, that the equilibrium would be reached in which protection agencies act more like actual businesses serving their customers, rather than as racketeers?

Re: Ron Paul’s Farewell Address: The Internet Can Stop Big Government

#132

Post by philwelch »

rayiner wrote: post #128
philwelch wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Libertarians deeply want to believe that we live in a world where you can leave people free to transact freely in a free market, and that will maximize total value. And economic theory tells us that isn't true. Libertarianism isn't about maximizing total value; not if you're intellectually consistent about it. Most libertarians see libertarianism as a moral imperative and respond to arguments about "maximizing tota…

There is a self-consistent version of libertarianism based on a moral belief in freedom tempered by property rights (which is of course a totally arbitrary premise). I disagree, however, that most libertarians feel that way, largely because of the huge emphasis on free markets. I think most are just utilitarians who are mistaken.

Lots of libertarians aren't intellectually consistent; I was just talking about the intellectually consistent ones who actually have a "libertarian framework" to apply rather than simply a generalized skepticism about government ;) I think we agree.

Re: Ron Paul’s Farewell Address: The Internet Can Stop Big Government

#133

Post by mbetter »

snitko wrote: post #54
timr wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw (...let's be clear that I'm not calling libertarians pigs. The point is that you can't change a dedicated person's mind via argument, and neither I nor Shaw found the effort enjoyable or productive.)

Ok, sure. Let's not argue then. I have a question though (and it's not intended to spark an argument), I'm just curious to know, how and why do you think people become libertarians?

Because having a simple and logically consistent system to decide what is right and wrong in any given situation absolves one of the responsibility to make complicated moral decisions on their own merits.

I understand libertarianism and I very much appreciate that it is built on a foundation of reason. However, being an imperfect being, a wise man tempers his reason with empiricism.

Re: Ron Paul’s Farewell Address: The Internet Can Stop Big Government

#134

Post by rhizome »

rhizome wrote: post #37
wyclif wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Precisely what part of Ron Paul's policies are "batshit crazy", hmmm? Which policies, specifically? Not wanting to fund wars and nation-building in other countries? Not picking sides in foreign revolutions, operating drone wars in other countries, assassinating American citizens and maintaining a secret "kill list" without any congressional approval? Wanting to close down Guantanamo Bay? Vetoing legislation that is u…

Politicians lie. The more you agree with them, the closer you should be looking.

Yes, I should have known better than to comment on an HN political thread.

Re: Ron Paul’s Farewell Address: The Internet Can Stop Big Government

#135

Post by jacobsimeon »

He also says something of a little more substance that, maybe, lines up with the deeper HN sentiment:

"Our individual goal in life ought to be for us to seek virtue and excellence and recognize that self-esteem and happiness only comes from using one’s natural ability, in the most productive manner possible, according to one’s own talents."

I would argue that no other politician could state such a clear and meaningful fact. The guy is as sincere and level headed as they come, which is what makes the media's portrayal of him so tragic.

Re: Ron Paul’s Farewell Address: The Internet Can Stop Big Government

#136

Post by Volpe »

astrodust wrote: post #69
ac132 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was in china for a month and had a great time eating at local restaurants that weren't monitored by health inspectors. Most of the developing world does not have health inspectors monitoring restaurants because it's not that important of a thing to do. The lack of food regulations in China made it possible for lots of amazing restaurants to exist because local people don't worry about regulations. If they want to s…

In China far more people die from eating food laced with toxins than do in countries with food inspectors. Your argument is totally absurd. So many people in Africa are dying of AIDS, malaria, and other diseases that have long been cured in western society, near apocalyptic levels of death by European standards, yet the population is growing and commerce is going on. Are you suggesting that this situation is "quite n…

> In China far more people die from eating food laced with toxins than do in countries with food inspectors.

Citation please...

Re: Ron Paul’s Farewell Address: The Internet Can Stop Big Government

#137

Post by yaks_hairbrush »

rayiner wrote: post #125
yaks_hairbrush wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two ways: first, people do not currently value environmental protection. When the environment deteriorates to a certain point, people will be motivated to do environmental protection in the absence of regulation. Second, allow lawsuits for damage to property resulting from pollution. There could be a neat little lawsuit right now: NY and NJ residents vs. 5 biggest polluters in the world, on account of Sandy and the s…

Your explanation ignores both externalities and transaction costs, not to mention more subtle things like information asymmetries and cognitive overload. You can't just ignore the parts of economics that don't fit into your ideology.

> Your explanation ignores both externalities and transaction costs

Well, handling property damages in court is deterring "tragedy of the commons" by making putting the commons-over-user at financial risk.

> ... more subtle things like information asymmetries and cognitive overload.

You pay someone to give you information. We do this now: our taxes fund the EPA and they give us information.

> You can't just ignore the parts of economics that don't fit into your ideology.

I'm not a libertarian. To the best of my understanding, there are some things that really should be done by the private sector and not by the government (airport security, for example). There are also things that really should be done by the government and not by the private sector (the trend of privatizing prisons disturbs me).

You asked a question, though: how would a libertarian society's environment be protected. I offered up an option.

Re: Ron Paul’s Farewell Address: The Internet Can Stop Big Government

#138

Post by Gormo »

mbetter wrote: post #133
snitko wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, sure. Let's not argue then. I have a question though (and it's not intended to spark an argument), I'm just curious to know, how and why do you think people become libertarians?

Because having a simple and logically consistent system to decide what is right and wrong in any given situation absolves one of the responsibility to make complicated moral decisions on their own merits. I understand libertarianism and I very much appreciate that it is built on a foundation of reason. However, being an imperfect being, a wise man tempers his reason with empiricism.

> Because having a simple and logically consistent system to decide what is right and wrong in any given situation absolves one of the responsibility to make complicated moral decisions on their own merits.

But libertarians are the ones who want to take direct moral responsibility for their circumstances; it's statists who seek to outsource that responsibility to distant formal institutions or systems of pre-defined abstract rules.

Re: Ron Paul’s Farewell Address: The Internet Can Stop Big Government

#139

Post by grannyg00se »

snitko wrote: post #38
astrodust wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is Ron Paul is a crazy guy. He's trying to rigorously apply principles from the 1700s to today's world. He's not willing to compromise in the face of evidence that contradicts his firmly held opinions. I've studied Libertarianism to the point of finding out that, not unlike other extremist philosophies, it's too far-fetched to ever work. People are too "human" for Libertarianism to ever work. It's too eas…

I challenge you to give me one very specific example of how something is not going to work in a libertarian world and I'm going right here right now to prove you how it actually would work. (because, with all due respect, I think writing comments that basically say "it's not gonna work because it's puppies and rainbows" is not helping us find out the truth).

"I challenge you to give me one very specific example"

I see your challenge went mostly unanswered. Unfortunate because I really would like to hear from the "Ron Paul is crazy" crowd since this is the first I've heard that such a crowd exists. Whenever I hear Ron Paul speaking he sounds very smart, educated on the topic at hand, and possessing of a much deeper insight than most.

Re: Ron Paul’s Farewell Address: The Internet Can Stop Big Government

#140

Post by jacobsimeon »

snitko wrote: post #33

What makes me sad is that a lot of people, even here, discharge Ron Paul as some sort of crazy guy without even listening to what he says. In comments to this post "thesagan" wrote that some of his ideas are "batshit crazy" as if his ideology is composed of many different unrelated parts. Not true, Ron Paul ideas are ideas of libertarianism and if you study them diligent enough, you'll eventually be used to thinking…

This comment is well intentioned but fails to compel any non-libertarian to consider Paul's opinion. It is true that Paul is unfairly (perhaps unjustly) portrayed by the media as, to put it plainly, crazy but whining about how unfair it is won't help matters.

Ron Paul's message places personal, financial and social liberty at esteem and condemns government encroachment on these liberties. His career as a congressman is consistent with his message which is saying more than can be said of any other politician. For these reasons, the man deserves to be heard and he deserves your respect.

The least anyone could do is read the actual transcript of the address--techcrunch doesn't do it justice.

http://m.washingtonexaminer.com/transcript-ron-pauls-farewel...

Post reply on HN