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Ron Paul’s Farewell Address: The Internet Can Stop Big Government

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Re: Ron Paul’s Farewell Address: The Internet Can Stop Big Government

#121

Post by yaks_hairbrush »

rayiner wrote: post #116
snitko wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I challenge you to give me one very specific example of how something is not going to work in a libertarian world and I'm going right here right now to prove you how it actually would work. (because, with all due respect, I think writing comments that basically say "it's not gonna work because it's puppies and rainbows" is not helping us find out the truth).

Explain how environmental protection works without regulation, taking into account negative externalities as well as transaction costs.

Two ways: first, people do not currently value environmental protection. When the environment deteriorates to a certain point, people will be motivated to do environmental protection in the absence of regulation.

Second, allow lawsuits for damage to property resulting from pollution. There could be a neat little lawsuit right now: NY and NJ residents vs. 5 biggest polluters in the world, on account of Sandy and the scientific evidence that Sandy was very much a result of AGW. (But then, it should be noted that lawsuits decided by courts is a governmental function.)

Re: Ron Paul’s Farewell Address: The Internet Can Stop Big Government

#122

Post by robrenaud »

ac132 wrote: post #61
dstorrs wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me preface this by saying that I'm actually pretty much onboard with a lot of the Libertarian policies that I've heard. Like anything, of course, I think it can be taken too far. So, when you ask for a "very specific example", this is the sort of thing that comes to mind: - City governments have health inspectors that check local restaurants, and food-product companies to ensure they are using good ingredients, t…

I was in china for a month and had a great time eating at local restaurants that weren't monitored by health inspectors. Most of the developing world does not have health inspectors monitoring restaurants because it's not that important of a thing to do. The lack of food regulations in China made it possible for lots of amazing restaurants to exist because local people don't worry about regulations. If they want to s…

I have one Chinese friend who married a Chinese American and had a child with her. He then got a job opportunity in Shanghai and took it, leaving her in the US with the child because the food safety is so bad in China. Knowing nothing about the particulars of food safety in China, I thought this was insane. I brought it up to two other Chinese born coworkers, and they thought it was reasonable to raise the child in the US because of food safety concerns.

Briefly searching around the net, the food safety in China does seem very scary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/18/opinion/chinas-corrupt-foo...

Re: Ron Paul’s Farewell Address: The Internet Can Stop Big Government

#123

Post by rayiner »

ac132 wrote: post #61
dstorrs wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me preface this by saying that I'm actually pretty much onboard with a lot of the Libertarian policies that I've heard. Like anything, of course, I think it can be taken too far. So, when you ask for a "very specific example", this is the sort of thing that comes to mind: - City governments have health inspectors that check local restaurants, and food-product companies to ensure they are using good ingredients, t…

I was in china for a month and had a great time eating at local restaurants that weren't monitored by health inspectors. Most of the developing world does not have health inspectors monitoring restaurants because it's not that important of a thing to do. The lack of food regulations in China made it possible for lots of amazing restaurants to exist because local people don't worry about regulations. If they want to s…

My family hails from a developing nation. People get sick eating restaurant food all the damn time.

Re: Ron Paul’s Farewell Address: The Internet Can Stop Big Government

#124

Post by philwelch »

rayiner wrote: post #110
snitko wrote: post #33

What makes me sad is that a lot of people, even here, discharge Ron Paul as some sort of crazy guy without even listening to what he says. In comments to this post "thesagan" wrote that some of his ideas are "batshit crazy" as if his ideology is composed of many different unrelated parts. Not true, Ron Paul ideas are ideas of libertarianism and if you study them diligent enough, you'll eventually be used to thinking…

Libertarianism is just as much a patch-work of different beliefs as any of the party ideologies. There is a huge internal inconsistency, for example, between it's reliance on economic theories with its embrace of "natural rights" approaches to freedom of action. Libertarians deeply want to believe that we live in a world where you can leave people free to transact freely in a free market, and that will maximize total…

> Libertarians deeply want to believe that we live in a world where you can leave people free to transact freely in a free market, and that will maximize total value. And economic theory tells us that isn't true.

Libertarianism isn't about maximizing total value; not if you're intellectually consistent about it. Most libertarians see libertarianism as a moral imperative and respond to arguments about "maximizing total value" with "the ends don't justify the means".

Re: Ron Paul’s Farewell Address: The Internet Can Stop Big Government

#125

Post by rayiner »

yaks_hairbrush wrote: post #121
rayiner wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Explain how environmental protection works without regulation, taking into account negative externalities as well as transaction costs.

Two ways: first, people do not currently value environmental protection. When the environment deteriorates to a certain point, people will be motivated to do environmental protection in the absence of regulation. Second, allow lawsuits for damage to property resulting from pollution. There could be a neat little lawsuit right now: NY and NJ residents vs. 5 biggest polluters in the world, on account of Sandy and the s…

Your explanation ignores both externalities and transaction costs, not to mention more subtle things like information asymmetries and cognitive overload. You can't just ignore the parts of economics that don't fit into your ideology.

Re: Ron Paul’s Farewell Address: The Internet Can Stop Big Government

#126

Post by philwelch »

saraid216 wrote: post #75
mindslight wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personal stewardship of nuclear weapons. Please don't "prove to me how it actually would work". Just think about it a while for yourself, and learn to accept that there's limits to the philosophy. Libertarianism is ultimately a heuristic, and you do it no favors by handwavingly claiming that you can prove desirable large scale behaviors based on a small set of axioms. Signed - a libertarian.

This has been what bugs me about gun rights people. The argument about personal safety is fine, but the people who want everyone to be armed in case the government decided to show its true colors or something? Um. You don't want a firearm . You want a tank .

Turns out rifles and IED's are pretty effective. Tanks aren't worth shit in a guerrilla war.

Re: Ron Paul’s Farewell Address: The Internet Can Stop Big Government

#127

Post by Klinky »

snitko wrote: post #54
timr wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw (...let's be clear that I'm not calling libertarians pigs. The point is that you can't change a dedicated person's mind via argument, and neither I nor Shaw found the effort enjoyable or productive.)

Ok, sure. Let's not argue then. I have a question though (and it's not intended to spark an argument), I'm just curious to know, how and why do you think people become libertarians?

By reading Atlas Shrugged and having an egocentric view of the world.

Re: Ron Paul’s Farewell Address: The Internet Can Stop Big Government

#128

Post by rayiner »

philwelch wrote: post #124
rayiner wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Libertarianism is just as much a patch-work of different beliefs as any of the party ideologies. There is a huge internal inconsistency, for example, between it's reliance on economic theories with its embrace of "natural rights" approaches to freedom of action. Libertarians deeply want to believe that we live in a world where you can leave people free to transact freely in a free market, and that will maximize total…

> Libertarians deeply want to believe that we live in a world where you can leave people free to transact freely in a free market, and that will maximize total value. And economic theory tells us that isn't true. Libertarianism isn't about maximizing total value; not if you're intellectually consistent about it. Most libertarians see libertarianism as a moral imperative and respond to arguments about "maximizing tota…

There is a self-consistent version of libertarianism based on a moral belief in freedom tempered by property rights (which is of course a totally arbitrary premise). I disagree, however, that most libertarians feel that way, largely because of the huge emphasis on free markets. I think most are just utilitarians who are mistaken.

Re: Ron Paul’s Farewell Address: The Internet Can Stop Big Government

#129

Post by mbetter »

vitno wrote: post #114
saraid216 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it's not really a pure free market system, so it doesn't count.

you do realize that is a valid argument though, right? The core concept of the no true scotsman argument is the wishy-washy definition of what is being debated. He isn't a true scotsman because a true scotsman would wear a kilt! something like that. If the definition of scotsman is "wears a kilt" the same way a libertarian would say "pure free market" then it is totally valid.

He may wear a kilt, but he doesn't play the bagpipes, so he's no true Scotsman.

Re: Ron Paul’s Farewell Address: The Internet Can Stop Big Government

#130

Post by Steko »

snitko wrote: post #33

What makes me sad is that a lot of people, even here, discharge Ron Paul as some sort of crazy guy without even listening to what he says. In comments to this post "thesagan" wrote that some of his ideas are "batshit crazy" as if his ideology is composed of many different unrelated parts. Not true, Ron Paul ideas are ideas of libertarianism and if you study them diligent enough, you'll eventually be used to thinking…

"discharge Ron Paul as some sort of crazy guy without even listening to what he says"

Or they read enough of what he has said and found it abhorrent.

"composed of many different unrelated parts. Not true, Ron Paul ideas are ideas of libertarianism"

Libertarianism and the coming race war.

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