How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt] • Hacker News Board

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#81

Post by john_strinlai » Thu, Apr 30, 2026, 8:21 PM UTC

rdevilla wrote: post #78

john_strinlai wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why don't you just misgender me next while you're making assumptions? what...? > until people derailed it by people, do you mean you? you are the one that brought up "overseas" vs. canada/san fran and made the false claim that you cant use cash in canada.

The purpose was to illustrate how even basic commerce is going to be monitored to a much greater degree in highly electronic socities like those in North America. Go ask the fucking corner store in the deep Philippine provinces, where the power goes out twice a month, to bring out the credit card machine - no, almost all transactions will be done in cash, whereas only 10% will be in Canada. Let's just assume one nine…

>Did you read the Bank of Canada report or the CBC article, with actual stats, or are you going to keep asserting your anecdata and personal experience?

you said that i cannot use cash in canada. full stop.

if you wanted to talk about the proportion of cash use, which is a point i wholly agree with, you should have said that in your first comment instead of saying that you cant use cash at all (and linking it to covid?).

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#82

Post by croes » Thu, Apr 30, 2026, 8:30 PM UTC

anonymousiam wrote: post #66

"One big change impacting surveillance was clear: Prior to September 11, the U.S. had what could reasonably be called a “wall” separating foreign surveillance for national security purposes done by the NSA from domestic surveillance for law enforcement purposes done by the FBI." It turns out that the above statement is not entirely correct. I was aware of this rule at the time (early 90's), and was very surprised to…

Snowden had also signed many NDAs with the government

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#83

Post by rdevilla » Thu, Apr 30, 2026, 8:36 PM UTC

john_strinlai wrote: post #81

rdevilla wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The purpose was to illustrate how even basic commerce is going to be monitored to a much greater degree in highly electronic socities like those in North America. Go ask the fucking corner store in the deep Philippine provinces, where the power goes out twice a month, to bring out the credit card machine - no, almost all transactions will be done in cash, whereas only 10% will be in Canada. Let's just assume one nine…

> Did you read the Bank of Canada report or the CBC article, with actual stats, or are you going to keep asserting your anecdata and personal experience? you said that i cannot use cash in canada. full stop. if you wanted to talk about the proportion of cash use, which is a point i wholly agree with, you should have said that in your first comment instead of saying that you cant use cash at all (and linking it to cov…

[flagged]

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#84

Post by dylan604 » Thu, Apr 30, 2026, 8:36 PM UTC

anonymousiam wrote: post #77

dylan604 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unlike Snowden, I kept this to myself because I had signed (many) NDAs with the US Government. You say this like you are proud of it. Admittedly, I cannot say what I would do in that situation as I've never been in that situation, but I'd hope I'd have the fortitude to speak up on it. Having employees/contractors doing tasks that are illegal just because they came from the higher ups is no different than soldiers r…

I'm not proud of it at all. The revelation was startling to me, and I was pretty unhappy about it. It was done in the name of "stopping bad people from doing bad things", but it was still illegal (at least in the white world). Snowden had the same dilemma. He was asking the NSA lawyers about the legality of their programs, and he never got an honest answer. Quitting would not have stopped the activity, and disclosing…

Quitting would just be the first step in "I do not want to participate in this". Whistle blowing is much more complicated in that you are hoping to not just not be participating but maybe stopping it altogether. Being young and single compared to being older with dependents would absolutely make that decision harder. Violating secrecy laws to disclose illegal activity seems like something that should have a caveat to allow, but of course they don't.

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#85

Post by john_strinlai » Thu, Apr 30, 2026, 8:37 PM UTC

rdevilla wrote: post #83

john_strinlai wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Did you read the Bank of Canada report or the CBC article, with actual stats, or are you going to keep asserting your anecdata and personal experience? you said that i cannot use cash in canada. full stop. if you wanted to talk about the proportion of cash use, which is a point i wholly agree with, you should have said that in your first comment instead of saying that you cant use cash at all (and linking it to cov…

[flagged]

>Just go on and assume my race is Italian or Roman or something next.

every time you can't refute something, you bring in gender or race.

its one of the strangest things ive seen.

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#86

Post by rdevilla » Thu, Apr 30, 2026, 8:43 PM UTC

john_strinlai wrote: post #85

rdevilla wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Just go on and assume my race is Italian or Roman or something next. every time you can't refute something, you bring in gender or race. its one of the strangest things ive seen.

> every time you can't refute something, you bring in gender or race.

I learned from the highly effective rhetoric of the 2010s.

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#87

Post by dijit » Thu, Apr 30, 2026, 8:44 PM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #84

anonymousiam wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not proud of it at all. The revelation was startling to me, and I was pretty unhappy about it. It was done in the name of "stopping bad people from doing bad things", but it was still illegal (at least in the white world). Snowden had the same dilemma. He was asking the NSA lawyers about the legality of their programs, and he never got an honest answer. Quitting would not have stopped the activity, and disclosing…

Quitting would just be the first step in "I do not want to participate in this". Whistle blowing is much more complicated in that you are hoping to not just not be participating but maybe stopping it altogether. Being young and single compared to being older with dependents would absolutely make that decision harder. Violating secrecy laws to disclose illegal activity seems like something that should have a caveat to…

This is a moral psychological quandary: quit and hope everyone shares your moral compass. (hint: they don’t).

Or work to pressure change internally, and occupy space that might have gone to a more morally flexible person if it was made vacant; but while doing so engage in supporting immoral behaviour.

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#88

Post by lysace » Thu, Apr 30, 2026, 8:46 PM UTC

One of the few good outcomes: Mark Klein never faced a lawsuit or criminal charges from the government, AT&T or the justice system in general for his disclosure.

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#89

Post by normalaccess » Thu, Apr 30, 2026, 8:48 PM UTC

whilenot-dev wrote: post #61

alecco wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UK: hold my beer...

I think GP meant to s/EU/UK/, as in "UK has their cameras", because "EU has their cameras" doesn't make much sense to me as EU citizen...

Yep, got my wires crossed, thanks for the correction.

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#90

Post by wahnfrieden » Thu, Apr 30, 2026, 8:50 PM UTC

dijit wrote: post #87

dylan604 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quitting would just be the first step in "I do not want to participate in this". Whistle blowing is much more complicated in that you are hoping to not just not be participating but maybe stopping it altogether. Being young and single compared to being older with dependents would absolutely make that decision harder. Violating secrecy laws to disclose illegal activity seems like something that should have a caveat to…

This is a moral psychological quandary: quit and hope everyone shares your moral compass. (hint: they don’t). Or work to pressure change internally, and occupy space that might have gone to a more morally flexible person if it was made vacant; but while doing so engage in supporting immoral behaviour.

Neither work without organizing. You cannot apply any meaningful pressure from the inside as an individual worker. You also do not need to work someplace to organize it.