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Germany has become the largest ammunition producer in the world

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111–120 of 122 posts

Re: Germany has become the largest ammunition producer in the world

#111
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need both. See Ukraine needing mountains of artillery despite the pre war consensus being that the artillery era is over The drones make the news but can’t be the only weapon you bring

This is more of a doctrine issue. Ukraine was given mountains of artillery by western nations, so naturally they were going to use it. But artillery has lower RoI than drones, drones are cheaper, more accurate, more versatile, and have longer range. It makes the most sense to heavily invest in the better technology drones, not artillery. If we look at what Ukraine spends its military budget on, >50% of its military s…

> I'd estimate that during the latest conflict between Israel/Iran/US + gulf states, approximately zero artillery shells were fired*.

That has nothing to do with the merits of artillery and everything with the type of war. Air campaigns with no front line obviously don’t use artillery…

Once you’re in a positional static fight artillery is still the cheapest way to deliver heavy ordinance. US isn’t likely to end up in a fight like that but that doesn’t invalidate artillery in general. Rheinmetal from the article is arming countries that are worried about a land invasion by Russia

> HIMARS

Very much hoping the US learned the lesson on relying on expensive tools like that. The shock and awe strategy didn’t work against Iran and it sure as hell won’t work against an adversary like China that has a much higher ability to backfill

Re: Germany has become the largest ammunition producer in the world

#112
post #17

I always wonder about these production numbers in the military. The US has a large military complex and Germany is an industrial power and North Korea is a small military autocracy suffering from raw material shortages, but Googling around I see[0]: > The expert also said that the North’s annual production estimate of 2 million 152-millimeter artillery shells is premised on peacetime manufacturing rates. But here Ger…

The US doesn't use that much artillery as a matter of tactics. A significant portion of their capacity exists to support other countries. Artillery is suited for combat with clear lines of confrontation. US doctrine actively tilts the battlefield so that these lines don't form, which plays to their strengths.

you wrote a lot of words to say "airpower"

the US has arty and lots of it, but it leverages the absolutely massive airforce to do serious dropping of ordinance

both may take a backseat in the era of drones

Re: Germany has become the largest ammunition producer in the world

#113
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US spends much of its defense budget on building expensive high-tech toys and maintaining 11 carrier strike groups, because it's military priorities are, in decreasing priority: * Making sure everyone loses a MAD nuclear war * Maintaining undisputed naval dominance in five oceans. * Bombing people on its imperial adventures all around the world. * Offering security and protection in exchange for military and econ…

The US spends most of its defense budget on: * training, civilian salaries (where most veterans find jobs) * maintenance of existing "toys" (aka money injected into local manufacturing, cleaning, painting, etc) * Enlisted pay, benefits, housing Then we get to procurement and R&D (which is just guaranteeing a job to people who finish college) The whole active navy and world policing is just a side benefit. https://www…

> The whole active navy and world policing is just a side benefit.

the word is "hegemony", and we're watching it wilt, in real time, at the strait of hormuz

Re: Germany has become the largest ammunition producer in the world

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It only starts to be a problem is when your government starts using those weapons in wars of aggression. Among Western democracies, only the US comes to mind... Israel (which Germany is providing weapons to) does nothing but attack its neighbors. A good portion of the imperialist aggression coming from the US is also done on Israel's behalf. Germany is certainly complicit in this.

Did you really read documents about the history? Your wording suggests 'no'.

Which documents? The Balfour Declaration? History about Nakba? Civilian kill stats?

Re: Germany has become the largest ammunition producer in the world

#115
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you referring to the new government Iran that took over after their leadership has been removed?

They're likely referring to the government that controls Hormuz straight.

Does saying obviously false statements make you feel better about yourself?

Re: Germany has become the largest ammunition producer in the world

#116

German industry is changing a lot loosing against China, so they have been moving to war related stuff for the past years. Personally, I know a bunch of people who were offered get transferred from VW to a military drone company. On one side I understand that manufacturing a lot of weapons could be somehow a protection for the future, but also Germany provides a lot of ammunition to Israel that is killing thousands o…

> Provides a lot of ammunition to Israel that is killing thousands of innocents in Gaza and Lebanon

I love how you just casually throw this out there as if it's an accepted fact. Casualty figures in Gaza/Lebanon are heavily disputed and have been from the get go. Hamas health ministry numbers don't distinguish combatants from civilians, ignore Hamas's use of human shields and embedding in civilian areas, or account for misfires/own goals. "Innocents" is subjective in urban warfare against groups like Hamas and Hezbollah (both designated terror orgs by many countries), whose charters and actions explicitly target Israeli civilians.

> weapons will lead to more weapons, more violence and more war

This is naive at best, dangerous at worst - western, white savior thinking. Weakness invites aggression. Example Russia's invasions or Hamas's Oct 7 attack. Deterrence matters and has mattered since day immemorial (cold war, for instance).

Arms races don't automatically lead to wars - they have deeper roots like ideology, territory, resources, etc... One-sided restraint has sometimes led to worse outcomes. Example here would be 1930s appeasement.

Re: Germany has become the largest ammunition producer in the world

#117
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One guy in a fighter jet is probably 1000000x more effective than a guy in a trench A guy in a trench with a $25,000 electro-optical/thermal MANPAD can now snipe a $100+ million dollar 5th gen stealth fighter flying low and fast. To decapitate a government you'd just need a roughly $500 drone you can make at home and some homemade explosives. Bonus points if you harden it from electronic attack and use INS and opti…

With this tech advantage what is there to stop Ukraine advancing into half of Russia? Russia is a nuclear power, I’m not sure if they’ve missed the moment or the fact so much was spent on its upkeep it was a magnet for corruption and all the rocket fuel has been replaced with pipe cleaner. The thing that really annoys me is there’s lots of great Russian people, and Putin has herded them off of a cliff. Where does Rus…

Manpower is the major resource necessary to take ground. You can bomb everything from the sky or from artillery far away but you don't control the land until you can put boots on the ground to defend it. Even if you manage to drone every Russian in Crimea, you don't own it until you can move in and defend your claim.

Re: Germany has become the largest ammunition producer in the world

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Artillery is only viable on Ukraine's side because Russia is too incompetent to manufacture long-range (30-50km) FPV strike drones at scale. Currently only Ukraine has pushed the "kill zone" to the 15-25km mark. Russia is behind. But this situation will not last, drone technology will improve on all sides, China will innovate on drone range and Russia will buy those drones. The drone "kill zone" will surpass the rang…

A good artillery team should be able to fire and scoot before counter-battery fire. And that's supersonic. You won't be able to do counter-battery with current drones. And an hypothetical supersonic drone is not going to be cost effective. Drones are likely still great to opportunistically picking up artillery that is scouted by other surveillance drones, but it is probably not the best solution for attacking a batte…

The latest strategy is to pre-position drones deep in enemy territory, then activate them when a target is found. This (combined with surveillance drones) would cause artillery teams to be targeted by drones within minutes of firing.

Re: Germany has become the largest ammunition producer in the world

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe your thoughts will change if they invade you again a few elections later

I live in Germany. My roommate is Polish. I have friends who are Polish. Poles are infinitely more afraid of the Russians.

Yeah. Germany is the only nation who actually learned from its troubled past. I would never trust a Serbian or Japanese with serious army, though.

Re: Germany has become the largest ammunition producer in the world

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's going to be both, and it's because of physics. At this moment, the best way to put kinetic energy into an enemy is sticking some quantity of explosive on them. You have a few ways of going about this. Two we consider today: 1) a chemical charge launches a block of explosive ballistically at a closing range of mach 2-5, 2) a complex assembly of plastic/rare earths/silicon/PCBAs flies over to the enemy at somewher…

Traditionally artillery shells (155mm as discussed in the article) have a maximum effective range of 30km. That means that the artillery vehicle can only function within 30km of the front line. Drones have dramatically changed this equation. The current drone "kill zone", which used to be several km from the front line, is now 15-25km deep, and Ukraine is pushing this to 50-100km. That means artillery cannot operate…

First off, disclaimer about the camera bias. Every FPV strike comes with a video. When a Ukrainian brigade drops a 152mm shell, nobody on Telegram sees it. When a $500 quadcopter lobs an RKG-3 that's a 30-second clip with a soundtrack, and the shooter can decide whether to show it, or not show it. The visibility asymmetry shapes both public perception and - increasingly - survey data getting cited.

Combat armies work as interacting systems, not 1v1 contest. Artillery clears treelines to give FPVs clear LoS, FPVs take out FOs before they can call back grids. No one would fire their guns for a 1-2 man infil, and no one sends a single drone to a revetted hard target - but working together, each one is better than the sums of their parts.

Tube artillery is not going to get mission-killed by a hand grenade's worth of munitions. That takes serious explosives. If you're spending 5-10 drones per hit (see disclaimer), now you're talking a big expenditure for effect, and unless you hit crew or magazines, you can't really disable the thing.

Which all would be fine because drones have the range advantage . . mostly. Howayyyver . . . range advantage of UAS has gotten seriously bitten by the increasingly obnoxious EW and jamming situation. Sure, vision AI can do terminal guidance[1], but you have to be pretty close to something before you can see it. That means navigating in a combat zone where every satellite is jammed all to hell - and navigating is hard. Ask the RAF bomber force circa 1942. Hell, ask pretty much any UA soldier firing one of the many US GPS guided doohickeys. Fiber drones do fix this problem, but now the range is dialed back to 10-40km, and you're in the arty zone again.

Ultimately "artillery vs. drones" is a category error - much like the constant US obsession with "fighters" or "bombers" or the increasingly meaningless ship classes. "Precision Fires" will take many forms. Tube artillery with bolt on laser guidance, rocket artillery popping gliding munitions riding either lasers or winding up close enough to use their onboard EOIR, alllll the way up to the lancets and the shaheds on the pure UAS side, with the high performance cruise missiles as the kings of that hill.

There's a spectrum there, and the harder your fight is, the more of that spectrum you're going to absolutely need. If anything, the Ukraine experience has most definitely shown that, both in the developing Russian "reconnaissance-strike complex" and the increasing capabilities of both sides to shoot and scoot in 90 seconds like CAESAR units.

If this forum did pics I would photoshop a cartoon of an artillery shell and a drone holding hands with BEST FRIENDS 4EVER t-shirts.

[1] and no one feels really all that safe with a boxed tiny dumb vision model zooming around with its safeties off . . and no comms. Has it been done? Sure. Were they happy about it? Oh lord no. There's a reason these sorts of systems are still heavily in testland outside of horrible desperate straits like UA or the Gulf.

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