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Why Law Is Law-Shaped

lawvm.org

51–60 of 73 posts

Re: Why Law Is Law-Shaped

#51

Man, I hated last year’s clanker-tone, and I hate this one’s too by now. I don’t want to read the word load-bearing ever again. The reminder that there’s structure and content and they’re different is a good one. Even a small legal document has this microstructure of references, inside, outside explicitly and outside by inference.

Yes, at this point I can't read this kind of AI text recreationally. It is somewhat fine when I ask Claude Code to explain to me something about a codebase or to summarize and collate info and it comes out in this shape. But if you're a human and you have some human idea that you want to share, don't come to me with AI text. If you do, I don't believe that the ideas are well thought out and come from thorough human thinking and life experience. If I want to consult AI on its understanding of the law, I'll ask it myself.

If it's your ideas, at least share the bullet points of the prompt it was generated from.

Re: Why Law Is Law-Shaped

#52
I have a lot of sympathy and affection for this project. When I started working in the US Congress in 2009, I was shocked there wasn't a more concerted effort to put US code in some kind of version control system.

Over time (~15 years in law and public policy in US and EU) I've come to view that kind of project as something worthwhile, and interesting, but not something that will meaningfully change how laws are created and understood. In the US, as a mixed but substantially common law system, the text of the US Code, which in the LawVM model is the tree, can remain fixed, but the interpretation of that text will still vary over time. (Same syntax, different semantics, which feels like an AI-ism as I write it.)

A couple examples:

I have worked in competition policy. Section 2 of the Sherman Antitrust Act has read the same since 1890 but it's operated across structuralist and consumer-welfare regimes, and the outcomes in Standard Oil, AT&T, MSFT, and more recent cases have all been shaped by those regimes.

US constitutional law may be an even better example of the issue: Article I, sec. 8, cl. 3 (the commerce clause) has not been amended since 1789, but it has expanded and contracted and been reinterpreted over time (most recently with NFIB v Sebelius).

Another example of the problem with a LawVM like system making "the law in force [...] knowable" is US overturning of Chevron deference on 28 June 2024.

Basically, the day before, courts were expected to defer to expert agencies, constrained by the Administrative Procedures Act, in their interpretation of legislation. The day after, courts were expected to make an independent assessment. All sorts of legislative texts were unchanged, but their meaning shifted dramatically: Clean Air Act, Communications Act, etc.

There are a bunch of other issues in figuring out "what the law is", like agency rulemakings in the CFR, and then instruments which sit below those, including sub-regulatory guidance, prosecutorial discretion, etc. Things which fall into this bucket:

- DOJ pot enforcement

- SEC no-action letters (letters which say in effect "we won't try to enforce if you do X")

Altogether, my thinking of this shifted to believing that the real thing that needs to be modeled is not the US Code as a tree serialization format, but the interpretative algorithm (the things lawyers and courts do) that translates that serialized tree into decisions. That interpretive algorithm has a lot of inputs, one which is the serialized tree, but also a bunch of other stuff.

As a final note, I will add that the ambiguity in legislative text is often a feature, not a bug. I have worked on legislative text that was intentionally crafted to provide different plausible interpretations to different coalition members both in the immediate context and in the long term.

In summary: projects like this are good and admirable; they're likely to have more direct utility in jurisdictions on one extreme of the civil law spectrum (i.e. not the US); and in all jurisdictions there likely needs to be an interpretive mechanism that sits above the representation of legal text which has more inputs if the goal is to model what the law is at any given time.

Re: Why Law Is Law-Shaped

#53

In an entirely different qualitative sense, this post reminded me of the short story by Kafka, Before the Law. I won’t paste the whole thing here, but it’s a really short read: https://homepage.univie.ac.at/st.mueller/kafka_english.html An article on the story: https://courses.cit.cornell.edu/hd11/BeforeTheLaw.html

[flagged]

Kafka would find your attempt to explain his story with AI hilarious.

Re: Why Law Is Law-Shaped

#54
post #4

> Parliament cannot restate the entire legal corpus each session. IMHO the biggest mistake. It should be like that. Because right now for mere mortal it's impossible to find out if some law or paragraph is still in effect.

Really? In which country? In Hungary we have several such services. Before the Internet was so widespread you could even buy it on a CD.

Here is an example: https://jogkodex.hu/jsz/kftv_2013_87_torveny_5995373?r=25

You can check the state of this law at any point in time and even highlight the differences.

I assumed it is so in every civil law country and the law is only unknowable in common law countries where basically every previous court decision is part of the law in some way and they contradict and it becomes a skill and game of twisting words and digging up obscure precedents.

Re: Why Law Is Law-Shaped

#55

> Parliament cannot restate the entire legal corpus each session. This is probably bad for some reasons, but I have wondered about a system where the legislature does have to restate the entire legal corpus every session. Like, everything resets at the end of the year and whatever didn’t get passed in the last 12 months is no longer law. Paired with some kind of rule that says you can’t just vote to pass “everything…

Similarly, I sometimes daydream about those ancient law systems that were so simple that they could be engraved on a stone pillar and placed in a public area. Could you imagine a legal system that can be read and understood in minutes instead of the sprawling, byzantine thing that takes years of law school to comprehend?

Re: Why Law Is Law-Shaped

#56
post #50

> Parliament cannot restate the entire legal corpus each session. This is probably bad for some reasons, but I have wondered about a system where the legislature does have to restate the entire legal corpus every session. Like, everything resets at the end of the year and whatever didn’t get passed in the last 12 months is no longer law. Paired with some kind of rule that says you can’t just vote to pass “everything…

Maybe not every 12 months / session, but I definitely think having a way to "sunset" certain types of laws would be a net positive on society.

"If no one is charged with $crime for n years, it goes away unless explicitly renewed" would fix some of the weirder laws still on the books, but by definition wouldn't really change much.

Re: Why Law Is Law-Shaped

#57
Ha, I really enjoy this description of the law. Very neat. Tickled my mind.

It struck me a while ago that almost no present law systems have a regularization or refactoring process. It is an entirely grown object that adds epicycles and it reminds me of the way our household personal agent would record memory until we gave it a self-reflection activity. It seems like a large number of states enacted sunset legislation in the 70s and 80s and many of them got rid of it shortly thereafter. I wonder what troubles they encountered.

One amusing (to me) observation using the model of edits in the OP is that if you say "Section 171 Part 3 is amended to now add the text 'never' at this location" and then later have "Section 171 Part 3 is amended to now add the text 'almost' right before 'never'" you need to have each such edit also be followed by a revalidation of the age of the entire section or you get amusing results due to the text changes.

A fun read for a later afternoon, perhaps.

Re: Why Law Is Law-Shaped

#58

In an entirely different qualitative sense, this post reminded me of the short story by Kafka, Before the Law. I won’t paste the whole thing here, but it’s a really short read: https://homepage.univie.ac.at/st.mueller/kafka_english.html An article on the story: https://courses.cit.cornell.edu/hd11/BeforeTheLaw.html

Thanks for the interesting read. But, I have to say, I didn't understand it at all.

I didn’t get it either. Maybe it is the opposite of the Gordian knot story?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordian_Knot

Re: Why Law Is Law-Shaped

#59

> Parliament cannot restate the entire legal corpus each session. This is probably bad for some reasons, but I have wondered about a system where the legislature does have to restate the entire legal corpus every session. Like, everything resets at the end of the year and whatever didn’t get passed in the last 12 months is no longer law. Paired with some kind of rule that says you can’t just vote to pass “everything…

In reality, there would probably be almost as much archaic weird cruft and more new ill considered cruft snuck in through each of the many annual bills that would mostly serve to readopt large sections of the prior law verbatim which would end up being must-lass legislation being considered on short deadlines.

Re: Why Law Is Law-Shaped

#60
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe not every 12 months / session, but I definitely think having a way to "sunset" certain types of laws would be a net positive on society.

"If no one is charged with $crime for n years, it goes away unless explicitly renewed" would fix some of the weirder laws still on the books, but by definition wouldn't really change much.

No, it wouldn't fix anything, but it would result it annoying periodic pro forma charges being filed.

When you take a measure and tie a control function to it, you make it a target. When you do that, Goodhart’s law applies, and when the specific connection is as simple as “maintaining a criminal law requires charging someone under it with at least X frequency”, the failure mode is obvious.

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