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Germany Overtakes US in Ammunition Production Capacity

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Re: Germany Overtakes US in Ammunition Production Capacity

#21

Post by exceptione »

ragebol wrote: post #2

It's still baffling to see the US lose so much face in so short a time. There is definitely truth that Europe has relied on US defense for too long, but what the US got in return is hard to put into words and economic terms. We bought your tech, culture, defense and so much other stuff. This rift won't close anytime soon

  > There is definitely truth that Europe has relied on US defense for too long,
That wasn't the problem for the USA, on the contrary.

  «The U.S. is lobbying against SAFE because it mandates contractors from the EU/EFTA/Ukraine. One reason why Tusk is speaking candidly about how shaky the U.S. is as an ally: Washington says it wants Europe to arm itself and take its security into its own hands, but then it demands Europe rely on American hardware. You can't have it both ways.
  The U.S. said: "Take over Ukraine's war needs." So Europe did so. Now PURL purchases are being slowed down or are on hold because of America's prioritization of its own requirements for the war with Iran. Talking out of both sides of one's mouth doesn't work anymore, and if Trump wants anyone to blame here, he should look in the mirror. Forfeiting America's security patronage always meant forfeiting our ability to bully and coerce.»
  src: https://xcancel.com/michaeldweiss/status/2047689018683408593

Re: Germany Overtakes US in Ammunition Production Capacity

#22

Post by pjc50 »

vr46 wrote: post #16
ragebol wrote: post #2

It's still baffling to see the US lose so much face in so short a time. There is definitely truth that Europe has relied on US defense for too long, but what the US got in return is hard to put into words and economic terms. We bought your tech, culture, defense and so much other stuff. This rift won't close anytime soon

They're laughing all the way to the bank, the US has locked Europe into so many long-term petrochem supply contracts courtesy of two energy crises, and the US have stated point-blank that the supplies (of LNG, in this case) are tied to the US-EU trade treaty plus whatever changes the US wants to make. Same protection racket plus a foot on the brake of the EU's push to renewables.

The renewables rollout just keeps going despite the discourse. It does mean buying things from China, which is now the least threatening option.

Re: Germany Overtakes US in Ammunition Production Capacity

#23

Post by 4gotunameagain »

SXX wrote: post #19
ragebol wrote: post #2

It's still baffling to see the US lose so much face in so short a time. There is definitely truth that Europe has relied on US defense for too long, but what the US got in return is hard to put into words and economic terms. We bought your tech, culture, defense and so much other stuff. This rift won't close anytime soon

And this is a good for EU. In past decades EU lost energy independence and good part of nuclear because croocked politicians that took dictatorships money while feeding same dictator with oil and gas money. At the same time EU had no proper army to defend itself because dependance on US or a way to supply said army.

Conflict with allies is not a good thing for anyone, apart from nationalism.

The dictator now makes more money, so we just lost our cheap gas source, and we buy more expensive oil from others.

Re: Germany Overtakes US in Ammunition Production Capacity

#24

Post by pjc50 »

spwa4 wrote: post #20

The problem with this, historically is that the way Europe's geography works, a number of countries are just not going to fairly share in the burden of defending Europe, while other countries have the ability to tax foreign trade. Ireland is famous for this, and looking at a map, you can see why. Spain, Turkey and Denmark have historically taxed foreign trade. Additionally a number of countries have "unfair" advantag…

Rather odd nineteenth century outlook that doesn't mention the European Union.

Re: Germany Overtakes US in Ammunition Production Capacity

#27

Post by preisschild »

wolfi1 wrote: post #10
eru wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, it's mostly the Prussians. Those Bavarians and Austrians and other southerns are too jolly.

you certainly don't know how belligerent the Hapsburgs were

Fun Fact, a Habsburg was even blamed for the dissolution of the German Democratic Republic

> After his fall, Honecker said of Otto von Habsburg in relation to the summer of 1989, "this Habsburg drove the nail into my coffin."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-European_Picnic

Re: Germany Overtakes US in Ammunition Production Capacity

#28

Post by kakacik »

nolok wrote: post #14
fabian2k wrote: post #11

> But the U.S. has made it clear that it wants to concentrate on the Indo-Pacific and the threat posed by China's powerful military, rather than propping up Europe. If that were true they wouldn't have wasted enormous amounts of expensive ammunition in Iran.

One, I feel like the "propping up Europe" is preposterous when europe is buying those things, not getting them for free, just like american weapon delivery to Ukraine have been paid by europe and not free for a long while now. Two, the US wasting of ammunition in an ill-prepared fight against Iran that has not produced any of the result they claim to want but managed to make things instable for a lot of the world has…

Ukraine soldiers had some comments on US military guidelines for use of patriots that they saw in this war - incredibly wasteful, where up to 10-15 rockets are used per 1 incoming shahed. They just set the system in automatic mode, let it select targets and fire at its will, and run for the bunker.

Ukrainians, having very little of those (or nothing now), used 1 patriot missile per 1 boogey with little drop in effectiveness, and whole crew remained in and guided it manually. According to them system is built to be wasteful to increase those interception numbers marginally, but for anything but short exchange its a very bad design mistake that can be easily overwhelmed or depleted, as seen trivially exploitable by enemy.

Re: Germany Overtakes US in Ammunition Production Capacity

#29

Post by pjc50 »

exceptione wrote: post #21
ragebol wrote: post #2

It's still baffling to see the US lose so much face in so short a time. There is definitely truth that Europe has relied on US defense for too long, but what the US got in return is hard to put into words and economic terms. We bought your tech, culture, defense and so much other stuff. This rift won't close anytime soon

> There is definitely truth that Europe has relied on US defense for too long, That wasn't the problem for the USA, on the contrary. «The U.S. is lobbying against SAFE because it mandates contractors from the EU/EFTA/Ukraine. One reason why Tusk is speaking candidly about how shaky the U.S. is as an ally: Washington says it wants Europe to arm itself and take its security into its own hands, but then it demands Europ…

Even before Trump, and the invasion of Ukraine, it was transparently obvious that the idea of minimum spending commitment to NATO was intended to prop up the US arms industry rather than actually achieve anything military.

To a certain extent the US occupation of Germany was intended to prevent Germany rearming on its own.

Re: Germany Overtakes US in Ammunition Production Capacity

#30

Post by XorNot »

nolok wrote: post #14
fabian2k wrote: post #11

> But the U.S. has made it clear that it wants to concentrate on the Indo-Pacific and the threat posed by China's powerful military, rather than propping up Europe. If that were true they wouldn't have wasted enormous amounts of expensive ammunition in Iran.

One, I feel like the "propping up Europe" is preposterous when europe is buying those things, not getting them for free, just like american weapon delivery to Ukraine have been paid by europe and not free for a long while now. Two, the US wasting of ammunition in an ill-prepared fight against Iran that has not produced any of the result they claim to want but managed to make things instable for a lot of the world has…

Every year for like the last decade I've heard "pivot to China" proceeded by the US using its various European bases to attack something in the Middle East.
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