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VLC Core is LGPL

jbkempf.com

141–149 of 149 posts

Re: VLC Core is LGPL

#141
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are not able to enforce the GPL anyway, so let's help companies use VLC and contribute back, so this benefits all users. Competition. AppStores and other crap of the post-PC era. :)

> We are not able to enforce the GPL anyway Why not? What prevented you from asking someone like the Software Freedom Law Centre or Software Conservacy to help you enforce it? Do you actually need lawyers to enforce the license?

Because it is very hard, very boring and time consuming.

And SFLC and SC care about "more important projects" as we were told.

I usually shut down 2 violations per week and it is not decreasing...

Re: VLC Core is LGPL

#142
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"GPL makes it impossible to utilize the library in any way in a commercial product" That's not strictly true. You could license your commercial product as GPL, or (more likely) contact the library's authors and negotiate usage of the code under another license.

As the OP has demonstrated, "Contact the library's authors and negotiate usage of the code under another license" is EXTREMELY difficult for a project maintainer and would thus be near impossible for anyone else.

It is much better if the price and terms are simply public up front. For instance, we were worrying about PyQt (GPL + commercial option) vs. PySide (LGPL) for a project, where PySide didn't support certain things that we needed. But then we realized that the PyQt commercial license comes with reasonable terms, and costs only £350, and it wasn't even worth the time worrying over it any more.

So yeah, "contact the authors" can be hard, but an up-front agreement and price can make it pretty easy.

Re: VLC Core is LGPL

#143
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'ts not just "not strictly true," it's not true at all. Nothing in the GPL prohibits GPL'd code from being used in commercial products. What is prohibited is using it in proprietary, closed-source products. You can have a product which is both F/OSS and commercial. Ask Red Hat, for example.

It's sad to see how the FUD around the GPL is widespread. It remind me a few months ago the launch of meteor.js. I heard so much people saying that it was "not usable commercially"... And the worse is that the same people have MongoDB in production with it's AGPL license.

With JavaScript and the GPL it is very unclear what "linking" is. Probably your entire website becomes GPL including content. Who knows as the language was written for system libraries. So I can see lawyers having an issue.

If you are not intending to modify Mongo then AGPL is not restrictive, which may be OK. The database API is not usually considered as "linking" as it is a wire protocol.

Re: VLC Core is LGPL

#144
post #41
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

VLC has been able to handle pretty much anything you throw at it for many years and always been available across diverse platforms. It's an awesome product. Why so negative?

The main reason, is that VLC is too mainstream... For people who want to spend hours to configure their system, MPC-HC with madVR can give better upscaling and foobar gives better audio fidelity. Most of the rest is usual rants from issues that VLC had in the past, but that 1337 video people like to bring up to explain how their setup is soooo much better.

It's not like every alternative requires hours of configuration. Download CCCP or SMplayer, push the button, and you're go.

VLC has ongoing minor problems (e.g. colorspaces) and a history of more major ones (e.g. buffer overflows in subtitle parsing). Unless you prefer the VLC interface (which would be perfectly reasonable, but I don't see people giving this as a rationale for using VLC), it's worse than either of the two alternatives I mentioned. And yet it's far more popular. This can be frustrating.

Re: VLC Core is LGPL

#145
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If X was GPL, the company would not have touched it, and would have opted for some other project instead. All those contributions back to the X community would have been lost. It is important to understand the distinction between "open source" and "free software". Open source focuses on the benefits of "open" code and development and how it can create superior software. Free Software focuses on the ethical issues--…

I think the fundamental disconnect here is that many people think the freedom you mention is not some sort of moral right. I have yet to meet anyone who can convince me that freedoms 1 to 3 should, in fact, be freedoms. (I do not have a problem with anyone giving her or his software a license that requires everyone to respect those four freedoms. What I do have a problem with is when people are berated for picking a…

The freedoms represent an ethical issue---that software developers have unprecedented control over their users. Why should I, as a hacker, be able to tell you what you can and cannot do with your device? Furthermore, it raises deep privacy issues---what kind of data am I collecting and why should I have that data?

I entered the free software movement slowly (I began software development on Windows as a young boy and was trained to think that bossing the user around was a good thing; I thought it was fun to write DRM system and anti-features). I began using GNU/Linux while still rationalizing my use of proprietary software through Wine or by dual-booting into Windows. I then saw the benefits of the "open source" development model. It wasn't until I spent the time researching the reasons behind the free software movement that things began to click. I was able to look back on everything I learned as a developer for Windows and see that I enjoyed the thought of controlling my users. I enjoyed the power I got from programming---programming was empowerment, and the only way to squeeze the money out of those unsuspecting users was to do it forcefully.

People have fundamentally different philosophies when it comes to programming. Do all proprietary software developers do so out of greed? On some level, sure---they're not contributing that code so that others may benefit from it. But are they doing it for the purpose of controlling their users? Not necessarily, but they still are, even if they have the best of intentions. Is someone who creates proprietary educational software for children in third world companies "evil"? Certainly not. The problem is that they're denying them an additional right---the right to modify that software, learn from it and use their devices as they please.

Of course, we often see proprietary software used unethically, often times for vendor lock-in or greed; corporations are worried that if they lighten their grip on their users, that the users may run, or worse, do something [il]legal. I don't believe that is the place of software developers. I remember, back when I used Windows, I was obsessed with magic/illusion. I purchased a ton of videos online teaching me various magic tricks, but the videos were laced with DRM (which, at the time, as a Windows developer, I applauded). The problem was, that I then upgraded my hardware. My videos no longer worked. I contacted them for a new key, and could view them again. Then I got a new PC. And now I use GNU/Linux. I can no longer watch those videos that I purchased because of this unnecessary, artificial restriction. Was I going to distribute those videos? No. Did that prevent others from stripping the restrictions and distributing it anyway? Certainly not. I was being punished for others' actions and the others weren't any worse off from the restrictions, because they understood how to defeat them.

Of course, DRM's only one of the many issues (and DRM cannot exist in free software, because the community would simply remove the anti-feature). What if I were using some software---let's say Photoshop---and it crashed on me in the middle of my work. Crap. Well, if I were using GIMP, I would run gdb on the core dump (assuming a segfault) and inspect the problem. I would try to repeat it. I could, if I wanted to, get my hands on the source code, fix the problem and distribute that fix to others. If I didn't have the time or ability, others could fix the problem for me, and we have the right to share those changes. We have the right to benefit from those changes. With Photoshop, we'd better start waiting. What if I was able to magically come up with a fix, perhaps by modifying the machine code? Hold on---I'm not allowed to do that! And I'm certainly not allowed to distribute that fix to others. And I'm certainly not allowed to give my son a copy for his PC if he wanted to do an art project for school.

The FSF provides a great deal of information on their philosophy: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/. You could also gain a great deal of insight by reading up on the history: http://shop.fsf.org/product/free-as-in-freedom-2/ or by reading RMS' essays: http://shop.fsf.org/product/signed-fsfs/.

And ultimately, you may find that you do not agree with our philosophy---many don't. That's certainly your right, and I respect that. What I cannot respect, and will not respect, is when that philosophy is used to exert control over others.

(As a final note: many say we control developers through our "viral" licenses. But keep in mind that we're trying to protect the users from developers. This means taking power away from developers. This is intentional.)

Re: VLC Core is LGPL

#146
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because while every piece of free software is a wound against proprietary software, the more liberal licences like LGPL and the BSD/MIT-style licences are a wound against free software: proprietary interests can take free code without giving anything back.

> Because while every piece of free software is a wound against proprietary software, the more liberal licences like LGPL and the BSD/MIT-style licences are a wound against free software Some of like like our proprietary software very much, thank you. I wouldn't want to live in a world where there would not have been a Photoshop, a Premiere or a Logic Pro but only their open source "alternatives". > proprietary inter…

That most of such analyses on the purpose of people choosing between BSD/GPL are mostly based on the presumption of imaginary or hypothetical reactions of human rather than solid data from real world, renders these analyses less convincing as such assumptions on human behaviours are very likely to be wrong.

Re: VLC Core is LGPL

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Pro or against proprietary software, it's a fallacy to assume that in a world where Photoshop didn't exist, its alternatives would be the same. Having a copy of PS for a relatively cheap price is a great incentive not to devote more resources to alternatives. In principle, yes, it's problematic to assume any alternative reality in which something has changed will otherwise be the same as ours. Things affect each ot…

For one, Photoshop does not have a "relatively cheap price". It's over $500 dollars by itself, and some thousand dollars with the rest of the suite. A price is only cheap or expensive relatively to something . Compared to the necessary money to improve a free program, $500 is ridiculously cheap. It's also pretty cheap compared to the benefits accrued by most professionals users by using it. Also note that the people…

>And exactly why wouldn't designers and illustrators pay (read: devote resources) programmers to improve it, just like they do now? If your claim is that people don't pay for OSS development, my paycheck says otherwise.

No, my claim is that people don't generally pay directly to support OSS development, and never in the scale of supporting huge teams of programmers, equipment, testing, etc like Adobe does.

There are very few examples of people in a field paying directly for OSS programmers to create programs for their profession.

Don't conflate a company paying for OSS software or employing programmers working on OSS (like Sun, Oracle, RedHat, IBM etc), with "people" and specifically graphic professionals paying programmers to create OSS graphic editing programs. (The one counter-example I can think of, Bender, was closed source, and not doing very well financially when people sponsored it's becoming OSS).

Heck, GTK+, the very toolkit used not only by Gimp but by a huge ecosystem of programs, is left with ONE programmer working on it (he posted a complain a few months ago).

Re: VLC Core is LGPL

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because while every piece of free software is a wound against proprietary software, the more liberal licences like LGPL and the BSD/MIT-style licences are a wound against free software Some of like like our proprietary software very much, thank you. I wouldn't want to live in a world where there would not have been a Photoshop, a Premiere or a Logic Pro but only their open source "alternatives". > proprietary inter…

>On the contrary. In reality BSD style licenses _enable_ companies to give something back to a project, whereas they would not be able with a GPL license. All it takes is to list projects like Linux and GCC to show that yes, companies can give something back just fine with GPL. What you are referring to are companies who wants to use open source in proprietary software, and yes for them GPL is not an option unless th…

>All it takes is to list projects like Linux and GCC to show that yes, companies can give something back just fine with GPL.

That only works for server software, like Linux, and basic infrastructure that tons of companies use, like GCC, etc.

And it works because they don't have to distribute said software. On the server side, it doesn't make any difference if the license is BSD or GPL.

In both cases, companies get to make whatever changes they want, deploy at their infrastructure, and NOT release the code (because they're not re-distributing it).

Plus, in a lot of cases, they use Linux as a commodity underlying layer, so they don't care about making proprietary changes at all.

Re: VLC Core is LGPL

#149
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Open source focuses on the benefits of "open" code and development and how it can create superior software. Free Software focuses on the ethical issues---while free software developers certainly want contributors, the emphasis is on the fact that the software respects your freedom and, for that, it's far superior to any other proprietary alternative Well, the "far superior" part is just, like, your opinion, man. [t…

Mixing the concepts of functionality and freedom into one concept do not work. If the program has more functionality, but limits the users in way of Intellectual freedom or Liberties, it doesnt make people more "freer to do stuff". What you got is a program with less freedom but more functionality. Two distinct property of the program. Let me make an exmaple. Is a video editing program "very free" if it have every fu…

>Mixing the concepts of functionality and freedom into one concept do not work.

I don't mix them. Reality does. While the two sources are theoretically orthogonal, they are also practically connected -- and it's easy to see why: proprietary a la Adobe equals huge company and tons of paid programmers, including people doing the necessary but less glamorous grunt work, i.e more functionality. So, most of the time, in desktop application software (server OSS software fares better) people have to chose between a more featured proprietary solution, and a less featured open source one. And more often than not they chose the latter, as they for example chose Windows/OS X over Linux. We cannot just turn a blind eye to that choice.

>If the program has more functionality, but limits the users in way of Intellectual freedom or Liberties, it doesnt make people more "freer to do stuff". What you got is a program with less freedom but more functionality. Two distinct property of the program. Let me make an example. Is a video editing program "very free" if it have every function in the world, best usability, and is perfect in every sense, but as a legal requirement it demands all copyright ownership of any video edited?

Well, if what I want to do is make a movie, and I cannot do it at all with an OSS program due to functionality limitations, then yes, the proprietary one is freer, even if I have to give them my copyright.

Which is a strawman argument, by the way. Proprietary software mostly asks for your money, and for you not to tamper with the source. No video editing program asks to hand them over your copyright.

>What if the proprietary did allow the users to retain the copyright, but, only if the video included a ad snippet?

What if? It's between the users and the program. If they accept that, then they want to use the program despite the ad snippet.

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