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Engineers suck at finding the right jobs

matt.aimonetti.net

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Re: Engineers suck at finding the right jobs

#81

Post by kisielk »

acuozzo wrote: post #8

> Now is an awesome time to be a software engineer (probably best time ever). I don't agree with this statement at all, as it's getting harder and harder to find low-level work (e.g., C and *asm) and that's the __only__ kind of programming that I enjoy doing. I'll start looking for another career when I have to consider putting words like ``full-stack'' or ``cloud'' on my resume in order to find work.

You might also want to look for jobs in the sciences there is a demand for highly optimized code in many fields that is often written at least partially in C. Offloading stuff to GPUs provides even more additional low-level programming challenges as well as parallel algorithm work.

Re: Engineers suck at finding the right jobs

#82

Post by kisielk »

acuozzo wrote: post #52
stephencanon wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in assembly and C, and like HeyLaughingBoy, I strongly disagree that there's any shortage of such work. If anything there's a significant shortage of good applicants. Where have you been looking? Are you constrained geographically?

> Where have you been looking? Maryland: in and around Howard County. > Are you constrained geographically? Yes, as my wife and I are quite settled in our home.

I already replied higher up with a suggestion to check in to the sciences. Seeing as you're in Maryland you're pretty much right in America's Biotechnology hotbed.

Re: Engineers suck at finding the right jobs

#83

Post by xenen »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #59

It is an interesting screed. I was thinking when I wrote up the comment about how VP's might feel about leaving a position that there is an interesting dividing line which doesn't get talked about a lot, Matt touches on it but didn't really call it out, its this, "What are you trying to get done?" Early in my career Steve Bourne gave me useful advice, he said the difference between junior engineers and senior enginee…

Thank you so much for this comment. It's legitimately eye-opening and helps someone like me answer a lot of questions.

Re: Engineers suck at finding the right jobs

#84

Post by PommeDeTerre »

mattetti wrote: post #33
w1ntermute wrote: post #12

I thought the author sounded familiar. He's the person who gave this blatantly sexist and offensive presentation, CouchDB: Perform Like A Pr0n Star , at the Golden Gate Ruby Conference in 2009: http://ompldr.org/vZ2I1cA/gogaruco-couchdb-090418194027-phpa...

yes it was me and as you just discovered I'm not perfect and made many mistakes in my life ;) Note however, that I try really hard not to make the same mistake twice and this lessons I learned 3 years ago stuck with me. The question is how relevant is your point? Are you trying to help the discussion or attack me personally?

I don't think he's trying to attack you personally, and I do think his comment helps the discussion.

Whether it's a good or bad thing, a writer's reputation (which is often based directly on past actions) does impact how people understand his or her work.

My opinion is that it's important to know such information when reading an article, regardless of whether it can be taken in a positive, neutral, or negative light. It does help the reader get a deeper comprehension of the article's message, and where the writer is coming from.

Re: Engineers suck at finding the right jobs

#85

Post by PommeDeTerre »

elemenohpee wrote: post #46
oboizt wrote: post #15

It really is an exciting time for software engineers. I'm a soon-to-graduate student and have gotten so many job offers that I had to pretty much stop talking about it with friends/family. Does anyone else feel awkward admitting how easy we have it in tech right now when there are so many people struggling to find jobs?

Yeah, I got a call from a recruiter when I was out to lunch with non-programmer friends. The fact that I was annoyed by it drew some death glares.

Maybe they should be taking some programming courses, or reading some programming books, rather than glaring.

Re: Engineers suck at finding the right jobs

#86

Post by Daniel_Newby »

acuozzo wrote: post #21
HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then start looking at companies that primarily produce hardware. Trust me, it's getting harder and harder to find people who even know what a pointer is. To the point where we simply assume the people we hire won't and we'll just have to abstract it away for them.

> Then start looking at companies that primarily produce hardware. I have in the past. The problem is that I have a BS in Computer Science and most hardware companies hire only Computer Engineers for low-level programming work (among other things).

> ... most hardware companies hire only Computer Engineers for low-level programming work (among other things).

I have a computer engineering degree—I will cheerfully work with anybody who can get the job done. EE, CS, physics, you name it. My experience has been that low-level skills are only weakly correlated with degree. You want the person who was writing device drivers in high school.

Re: Engineers suck at finding the right jobs

#87

Post by michaelochurch »

ricardobeat wrote: post #77
michaelochurch wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue of seniority always bugs me. If a 26 year old guy who writes "good enough" code can be a Senior, which I see very often, what's left? Some ideas, possibly an answer: http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2012/01/26/the-trajector... What companies tend to call "Senior" is usually around 1.4-1.6 in terms of responsibility. That said, most companies don't give you 1.4-level work until you're 1.7-1.8 in ability.…

In the US things are probably much better, but around here it's common to see senior positions filled by people at 0.8-1.3 on that scale, partly due to a shortage of developers and good education/experience. It's specially true at larger corporations.

around here it's common to see senior positions filled by 0.8-1.3 "engineers" on that scale

That's scary.

One thing I'm finding is that it's really hard to get into a position where you can function at a 1.5+ level. Most companies want reliable mediocrity, not excellence. The reason there are so few 1.5+ engineers is that there's so little 1.5+ work out there. I think that if a few companies had the balls to man up and go to open allocation, we'd see a dramatically higher level of software talent in a few years.

Re: Engineers suck at finding the right jobs

#88

Post by michaelochurch »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #59

It is an interesting screed. I was thinking when I wrote up the comment about how VP's might feel about leaving a position that there is an interesting dividing line which doesn't get talked about a lot, Matt touches on it but didn't really call it out, its this, "What are you trying to get done?" Early in my career Steve Bourne gave me useful advice, he said the difference between junior engineers and senior enginee…

The bimodal distribution of effort is really true, although people flip from one side to the other based on circumstances. Companies want people who (a) give a shit, but (b) are willing to subordinate their own career goals (including the long-term goal of becoming really good at engineering) to corporate objectives for a long (more than 3 months) period of time. The reality is that such people don't exist. People who give a shit won't let their skills atrophy just because a manager needs grunt work.

You have the goof-offs that you described who have (b) but not (a), and the self-executive types who have (a) but not (b). The people who seem to have (a) and (b) just have different career agendas. They want to entrench themselves and gain social power. Often, they're psychopaths. They're a lot more ruinous to companies than the outspoken and self-executive types that dinosaurs call "prima donnas".

Re: Engineers suck at finding the right jobs

#89

Post by efuquen »

mgkimsal wrote: post #48
johnnymonster wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cracks me up when people cling to titles. Even funnier when I see software developer 3 on a business card!

I was given a title once, and I think it was a 3 (this was... a heck of a long time ago). But... I wasn't told what the 3 meant - is 3 the bottom? The middle? The top? Is "level 1" where people start? Or is it like golf, where a lower number is better? I asked, and ... got the weirdest look, as if I was an idiot for not having some insider knowledge about "corporate titles". I wasn't there very long. And I never actu…

I always thought that those number titles were based on a scale from 1 to 5? Usually when I see 3 I think the implication is that you're a "mid-level" engineer. I understand the point that these numbers can be arbitrary and not well defined, but I think the idea that this is a "mid-level" engineer would be well understood (I believe this sort of numeric distinction isn't unique to just software engineers). Did you truly not get that or were you just asking the question to illicit a quizzical response?

Re: Engineers suck at finding the right jobs

#90

Post by michaelochurch »

OP: what do you think of open allocation?

http://www.quora.com/Software-Development-Methodologies/What...

Personally, I think it's the only long-term solution to this bilateral matching problem: engineers can't find good work, employers can't find good engineers. The problem is that most software engineers are indeed unskilled (and therefore few companies are willing to start interesting projects that might make use of skill) because high-quality work is so rare. It's a vicious cycle and open-allocation is the only way I can see of breaking it.

If they're intrinsically motivated, engineers are worth millions per year. If companies left them alone and were able to capture even 10% of their true potential, they'd do better than any closed-allocation shop.

There's an indirection that occurs whereby engineers apply to companies-- not specific projects or work sets-- and (until they've been at the company for a while and can change jobs without embarrassment) relinquish their right to choose what they work on. (A certain once-great search giant is notorious for abusing opacity.) They have no control over how they start in the company, and if they're not especially socially skilled, this will determine what kinds of projects and opportunities they get in the future. This indirection gives a lot of power to middle managers, who don't have the vision or inclination to design and allocate work in a way that would enable engineers to have real careers and improvement, and the result is an industry where stagnation, burnout, and middle-age obsolescence are the norm.

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