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America's Geothermal Breakthrough

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Re: America's Geothermal Breakthrough

#111

Post by micro2588 »

wesapien wrote: post #109
WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #2

I worked on geothermal control systems a decade or so back. There are some less obvious applications for geothermal that reduce electric use (as opposed to generating electricity). The systems I worked on were for cooling larger structures like commercial greenhouses, gov installations and mansions. 64° degree water would be pumped up from 400' down, run thru a series of chillers (for a/c) and then returned undergrou…

One of the problems with the data center boom is its use of fresh water. How does geo-thermal plants use water and how much?

The water at these temperature / depths has a lot of dissolved salts and minerals so it's not (human / ag) usable. Modern designs are closed loop systems where production wells bringing the hot water to the surface go through a heat exchanger to a different working fluid to drive the turbine and then is re-injected back into the reservoir. There is consumptive water use for fracking the reservoirs in these types of enhanced geothermal systems, but beyond that it's more water redistribution in the area around the well systems where re-injection and production lead to different pressurization from pumping / natural ground water replenishment rates.

Re: America's Geothermal Breakthrough

#112

Post by scandals »

nandomrumber wrote: post #70
rainsford wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really a couple of key points. The first is that the US isn't "incapable" of producing renewable energy infrastructure, we've just largely chosen not to for various reasons and are certainly capable of doing so if there was a good reason to. But the second and more important point is that relying on another country to produce renewable energy technology is not analogous to relying on another country to supply your ac…

> their price everywhere is impacted by restriction on their trade anywhere. That’s entirely a human fabrication. Any country can decide at any time to simple give their fossil fuel reserves away. Australia does, so I don’t see why any other country can’t do the same. Also, your plan relies on the power electronics and industrial control systems used in solar / wind deployments not being backdoored, which isn’t a bet…

Giving their fossil fuel reserves away isn't exactly solving anything is it though? They happen to be giving the reserves away to foreign investors and thus driving domestic prices significantly higher then they aught to be.

Re: America's Geothermal Breakthrough

#113

Post by micro2588 »

typon wrote: post #110
applied_heat wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Night time? But batteries! Several cloudy days in a row? More batteries! Cost? -> a mix of sources becomes attractive

https://imgur.com/a/dV8gk3R can you find curves like this for any other power source? also batteries are getting exponentially cheap too

These are typically representative of cost performance per watt of one part of a more complex deployed energy system. Things like the aluminum / steal for the container / framing, copper / aluminum for the transmission and wiring, land and labor for installation decline at much less aggressive rates or increase over time.

In almost all pareto optimal least cost energy system models that I've seen, high penetration of solar, wind, batteries plus some minority amount of (clean) baseload power is the most capital efficient energy system.

Re: America's Geothermal Breakthrough

#114

Post by edbaskerville »

idontwantthis wrote: post #56

Is 150GW enough for a “revolution”? That’s about 10% of current total power production.

Solar and wind, with battery storage, can get you to say 90%, and then you only need 10% from other sources like geothermal and nuclear to fully decarbonize.

Re: America's Geothermal Breakthrough

#115

Post by WarOnPrivacy »

wesapien wrote: post #109
WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #2

I worked on geothermal control systems a decade or so back. There are some less obvious applications for geothermal that reduce electric use (as opposed to generating electricity). The systems I worked on were for cooling larger structures like commercial greenhouses, gov installations and mansions. 64° degree water would be pumped up from 400' down, run thru a series of chillers (for a/c) and then returned undergrou…

One of the problems with the data center boom is its use of fresh water. How does geo-thermal plants use water and how much?

> One of the problems with the data center boom is its use of fresh water. How does geo-thermal plants use water and how much?

Baring leaks, ground source heat pump geo will consume no water at all. Water is pumped from one layer of the aquifer and is returned to a slightly higher layer.

Re: America's Geothermal Breakthrough

#116

Post by WarOnPrivacy »

limagnolia wrote: post #72
WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #2

I worked on geothermal control systems a decade or so back. There are some less obvious applications for geothermal that reduce electric use (as opposed to generating electricity). The systems I worked on were for cooling larger structures like commercial greenhouses, gov installations and mansions. 64° degree water would be pumped up from 400' down, run thru a series of chillers (for a/c) and then returned undergrou…

Whisper Valley in Austin Texas is one example of a neighborhood geothermal installation: https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/geothermal/texas-whispe... Maybe not quite exactly what you envision.

> Maybe not quite exactly what you envision.

I'm too zonked to pick out the method from the article - but I'll offer that geo methods can be region specific. What I described fits the SE US, with our 13 month summers and abundant underground water.

Re: America's Geothermal Breakthrough

#117

Post by dboreham »

lostlogin wrote: post #12
Animats wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shallow geothermal works fine for heating. And you can use the ground as a heat sink. But if you want to generate power, you need to get down to where temperatures can boil water. That's deeper than most oil wells. Fervo Energy claims to have found 270C at 3350 meters well depth. That's progress.

> if you want to generate power, you need to get down to where temperatures can boil water. That's deeper than most oil wells. That’s going to be very dependant on location. Here in NZ there are regions where water is boiling at surface level. According to the below, 18% of our power is produced with it. https://www.eeca.govt.nz/insights/energy-in-new-zealand/rene...

There are also places in the US with boiling water at the surface. I live near one of those places so always curious about geothermal. There's a spot near my house in a creek bed where snow always melts even in deep winter so apparently I have some potential heat source. Our well water is cold though.

Re: America's Geothermal Breakthrough

#118

Post by wood_spirit »

IncreasePosts wrote: post #92
zdragnar wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a pretty significant upfront cost in getting them drilled, and many homes need the vertical drilling if they don't have sufficient yard space for a horizontal system. It gets harder if you have your own septic drain field too, as that will complete for yard space. The cost difference is pretty massive- 3-10x for a vertical system. If you live in a city or a suburb with tiny lots, that's your only option thoug…

Air source heat pumps are insanely more efficient and just plain better these days too. It used to be that if the air was below 40F you couldn't heat your house with a heat pump. Now, you can heat your house even when it's -10F

The downvotes are unfair.

The price of things - heat pumps and alternatives - in different regions - even different regions within the US - varies by what people are prepared to pay not what they cost to produce.

The nordics have traditionally had cheap heat pumps whereas piped gas is only in the biggest cities and I’ve never seen bottled gas in the countryside. The competitor used to be cheap electricity and wood. Ground source heat pumps for rural install have been priced to compete with wood.

In the US the market could be shaped by regulation and taxation etc. It’s the choice of the US to have cheap fossil fuels and not embrace tech instead.

Re: America's Geothermal Breakthrough

#119

Post by AngryData »

zdragnar wrote: post #84
jjtheblunt wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a new in 1988 house in Champaign, Illinois, USA that used the same system, and i mention that because it was a normal modern house, and it's the only one i've heard of with that system. It seems so smart.

There's a pretty significant upfront cost in getting them drilled, and many homes need the vertical drilling if they don't have sufficient yard space for a horizontal system. It gets harder if you have your own septic drain field too, as that will complete for yard space. The cost difference is pretty massive- 3-10x for a vertical system. If you live in a city or a suburb with tiny lots, that's your only option thoug…

Although if you needed a new septic field, I would think ground source thermal would be significantly deeper than a drain field which is only like a foot or so down so you could stack them.
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