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Iliad fragment found in Roman-era mummy

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Re: Iliad fragment found in Roman-era mummy

#21

Post by wrqvrwvq »

bluGill wrote: post #7
notorandit wrote: post #3

I Hope more and more fragments of anything lost is found. The burn down of Alexandria library was a pity

Evidence for this common myth is lacking. https://www.thearchaeologist.org/blog/the-great-library-of-a...

People say this without any evidence. This ai-post is just regurgitating hn-thread "received wisdom". The evidence for the existence of a library is thin and hard to piece together, but points to more than a myth. I appreciate that people want real proof of anything, but dumping an ai-slop summary is hardly doing any better than accepting the existence of a large library.

Re: Iliad fragment found in Roman-era mummy

#22

Post by anon291 »

staplung wrote: post #14

Sadly, the article says nothing about how old the fragment is or how it compares to other early copies of the Iliad. Somewhat amazingly, the earliest complete copy of the Iliad is from around 950 C.E. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetus_A

It's not that surprising. The earliest complete copies of many ancient texts is similarly dated. For example, the earliest copy of the Rg Veda is dated to about that age as well. It's hard to keep complete copies of big books.

Re: Iliad fragment found in Roman-era mummy

#23

Post by tadfisher »

vlovich123 wrote: post #8
thaumasiotes wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It turns out that Egypt's hot and dry climate provides the perfect environment for their long-term preservation. Cold and dry would be just as good. It's the dryness that matters.

heat speeds up oxidation/ accelerates reactions but also decreases relative humidity for a constant moisture constant.

Only because humidity is measured relative to the vapor pressure at a given temperature. It only matters for preservation when humidity reaches 100%.

Re: Iliad fragment found in Roman-era mummy

#24

Post by kelnos »

AlexeyBrin wrote: post #16
horsh1 wrote: post #10

So why would they bury a man with a book?

Many cultures bury their dead with objects that the person enjoyed during their lifetime. This is present even today, I saw a burial in Eastern Europe where the parents put a game of chess and toys in the coffin. While it will do no good to the deceased my theory is that it is a way for the living to deal with the loss.

Well, sure. All of our death rituals are for the living left behind, not for the dead.

Re: Iliad fragment found in Roman-era mummy

#25

Post by addaon »

tadfisher wrote: post #23
vlovich123 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

heat speeds up oxidation/ accelerates reactions but also decreases relative humidity for a constant moisture constant.

Only because humidity is measured relative to the vapor pressure at a given temperature. It only matters for preservation when humidity reaches 100%.

Is this true? Paper (and I assume papyrus) expands and contracts with varying humidity even below the saturation point, and this motion embrittles and cracks it, no? So consistent humidity is key, and "consistently dry" is much more achievable than "consistently at an arbitrary other point."

Re: Iliad fragment found in Roman-era mummy

#26

Post by adastra22 »

wrqvrwvq wrote: post #21
bluGill wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Evidence for this common myth is lacking. https://www.thearchaeologist.org/blog/the-great-library-of-a...

People say this without any evidence. This ai-post is just regurgitating hn-thread "received wisdom". The evidence for the existence of a library is thin and hard to piece together, but points to more than a myth. I appreciate that people want real proof of anything, but dumping an ai-slop summary is hardly doing any better than accepting the existence of a large library.

The Library almost certainly existed. It is the destruction (by deliberate fire) that is probably myth.

Re: Iliad fragment found in Roman-era mummy

#27

Post by ButlerianJihad »

notorandit wrote: post #3

I Hope more and more fragments of anything lost is found. The burn down of Alexandria library was a pity

For some reason, there is a gigantic and ancient monastery on Mount Sinai with a commensurate collection of ancient manuscripts and papyri. Totally coincidence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Catherine%27s_Monastery#...

How did all that stuff get up there? It was holy angels. #itsalwaysangels

Re: Iliad fragment found in Roman-era mummy

#28

Post by ButlerianJihad »

horsh1 wrote: post #10

So why would they bury a man with a book?

While the collection is now termed by modern scholars as "Book 2 of the Iliad", there was no such thing as a "book" as we know it, in those times; there were codices and scrolls and manuscripts, etc., and everyone's favorite: the palimpsest!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palimpsest

Re: Iliad fragment found in Roman-era mummy

#29

Post by mistrial9 »

ButlerianJihad wrote: post #27
notorandit wrote: post #3

I Hope more and more fragments of anything lost is found. The burn down of Alexandria library was a pity

For some reason, there is a gigantic and ancient monastery on Mount Sinai with a commensurate collection of ancient manuscripts and papyri. Totally coincidence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Catherine%27s_Monastery#... How did all that stuff get up there? It was holy angels. #itsalwaysangels

those are certainly Christian curated documents. The previous six hundred+ years had seen the development of vivid and exotic religion, philosophy and arts. The Christians famously slew the Dragons, condemned Herod as a sorcerer and astrologer, and replaced the Apollo cults with the scripture that many know well.

I imagine that the Library of Alexandria was plural and diverse with respect to the traditions and inquiry that was represented there.

Re: Iliad fragment found in Roman-era mummy

#30

Post by vulcan01 »

jrumbut wrote: post #20
tollenda wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't a whole book, it was cartonnage: scrap paper from discarded books and documents, assembled and glued together like papier-mâché. The cartonnage was used to make funerary masks and some other parts of the mummification apparatus. There is a whole subfield of archaeology that deals with deciphering and identifying book fragments found in the form of scrap paper in Greco-Roman era Egyptian mummies.

I find it interesting how uncommon it is for this to yield new works. It seems like it's always the same handful of texts. Ancient readers liked what they liked and weren't out for variety it seems. At the same time, Juvenal has a whole satire about how everyone is trying their hand at writing books and mentions in another how booksellers are always getting new volumes. I spend way too much time pining for the chance…

You are falling victim to frequency bias. Popular books are popular – and especially before mass printing technologies, really popular. A lot of people may have tried to write books doesn't mean they're writing books good enough to dedicate an actual person's time towards copying them down.

Also, Juvenal was a poet. He most likely knew other poets, or aspiring poets, or at least people who liked writing. Your average, generally functionally illiterate, individual at the time is not trying their hand at writing books.

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