Israel live-tweets assault on Gaza • Hacker News Board

Re: Israel live-tweets assault on Gaza

#141

Post by babesh » Thu, Nov 15, 2012, 3:40 PM UTC

ilyay wrote: post #140

babesh wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not true that all races have equal rights under Israeli law. Try immigrating to Israel if you are not Jewish. The message is clear and simple: Don't mess with us, we will f k you over. Whether it is nice or not is a different matter.

All Israeli citizens have equal rights. You can gain citizenship if you have a Jewish background, just like someone with an Irish background can gain an Irish citizenship.

The statement was that all races have equal rights under Israeli law not that all citizens have equal rights. Furthermore, Ireland has a naturalization process whereas the Israeli one is limited to Jews and spouses of existing citizens. Residents of the West Bank and Gaza are NOT classified as citizens of Israel. So either the West Bank and Gaza are part of Israel or they are not. If they are not, then the residents there are under occupation. If they are, then why are they not granted citizenship.

I do not think that what Israel is doing is better or worse than what other countries have done or are currently doing and should not be treated any better or worse because of it. But it would be disingenuous to spin it as anything but what it is. To me, the strategy is to occupy and take over territory over time. It works. See the history of the United States versus native people, Australians versus aborigines, Chinese versus Tibetans. Might makes right. For Americans, we still benefit greatly from what happened in the past. Its not to say that the Palestinians are blameless, just that Israel has the 'bigger gun' in this fight.

Say what you will about history, but how people are treated right now is telling.

Re: Israel live-tweets assault on Gaza

#142

Post by vhf » Thu, Nov 15, 2012, 4:28 PM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #92

xenophanes wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The justification for settlements is as follows: buying land, and living there, is legal. Describing this process is "unilaterally moving into land where 2/3 of them live" is false. A way to stop being split on the issue is to stop believing false factual claims. Palestine will have moderate leadership sometime after the majority of Palestinians are decent people who will vote for decent leaders. Blaming Israel for t…

The problem is that the West Bank isn't exactly sovereign territory of anyone. If it was, settlements would be a non-issue--some Israelis want to move into Palestine, it's up to the Palestinian immigration authorities, just like if some Egyptians wanted to move into Israel today. But there are no Palestinian immigration authorities, just the Israeli government, and since that government is democratic that puts them i…

I mostly agree with your comment except for the first sentence.

The problem is that while Arafat officially recognized Israel in 1993, Israel never reciprocated. Would it still be war if Israel recognized the right for a Palestinian State to exist, and how this Palestinian demand for a right to have a state can be denied by people who asked for the exact same thing and obtained it (leading to the existence of Israel) a few decades before ?

Re: Israel live-tweets assault on Gaza

#143

Post by illuminate » Thu, Nov 15, 2012, 4:45 PM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #91

kamaal wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Zionism is the idea that Jews need a Jewish nation to take Jewish refugees fleeing persecution. Makes perfect sense. If you settle a persecuted set of people on a totally unoccupied land, which would be totally harmless. What I don't understand is the need to persecute one already existing set of people to accommodate another set of people who just got persecuted. If a persecuted tribe in Africa decides to settle d…

California has been "invaded" and the existing set of people "driven out" what, two times going on three now? (The Spanish driving out the Indians, Americans driving out the Mexicans, and now Hispanics immigrating at record rates driving out white Americans). This narrative about driving people out is an oversimplification at best, though, just as much for Israel as for California.

"and now Hispanics immigrating at record rates driving out white Americans)."

How on earth is the former causally linked to the latter?

Re: Israel live-tweets assault on Gaza

#144

Post by illuminate » Thu, Nov 15, 2012, 5:08 PM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #19

cup wrote: post #16

An adaption from an earlier comment of mine: Lets be frank, this was a targeted assassination by a nation state that consistently tries to paint itself as a beacon of democracy in the region. Say all you want about Ahmed Jabari but his modus operandi was a direct result of a life of occupation and subjugation. You don't go into prison at the age of 22 and come out 13 years later a happy individual. I mean it was only…

I find it very strange that people criticize Israel for assassinating terrorist, but say nothing about Obama's kill list or drone strikes.

"I find it very strange that people criticize Israel for assassinating terrorist, but say nothing about Obama's kill list or drone strikes."

You should try asking them how they feel about this instead of claiming hypocrisy.

Re: Israel live-tweets assault on Gaza

#145

Post by haberman » Thu, Nov 15, 2012, 5:17 PM UTC

xenophanes wrote: post #132

haberman wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find your argument unconvincing, but reading more about it did lead me to this page, so at least I can now say I understand Israel's official position on the matter: http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace+Process/Guide+to+the+Peace+P... Paraphrased, their position is: we won the 1967 war, and because there was no formal country in the West Bank prior to that, we can keep the land that we won in that war legally. Since we…

That's not what that link actually says. it doesn't say Israel as a country owns the place b/c of the (defensive) war. It argues the place has a status such that there's nothing wrong with individual israelis choosing to build homes there. it also makes some important points you left out, e.g. that trying to kick all jews out of the area would be ethnic cleansing, and that whatever you think of this issue it cannot j…

In my view there is a difference between maintaining/allowing existing settlements and constructing new ones. I agree that the issue of existing settlements has some more difficult questions, because it is, as you say, a serious thing to talk about evicting people from where they currently live.

That said, the construction of new settlements seems like a totally unnecessary provocation that undermines the prospect of a future Palestinian state. It very much gives me the impression that Israel is not serious about a two-state solution (in contrast with the withdrawal from Gaza, which very strongly had given me the opposite impression). I don't think it's appropriate to say what Palestinians should or should not "mind" having around; a major element of (future) sovereignty is a people being able to make their own decisions about immigration, as Israel does now. And while Israeli settlers may not be violent "as a whole," there is certainly a noticeable incidence of Israeli settler violence that targets Palestinians: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settler_violence

I agree that empirically, a lot of violence is waged on Israelis by Palestinians. However I think it's wrong to frame them as an inherently violent people. You might have said the same thing about Jordanians in 1967, but now Israel and Jordan are allies. Likewise the PLO, which called for the destruction of Israel in its founding charter, has since recognized Israel's right to exist and rejected violence and terrorism. I'm not denying current Palestinian violence, which is awful.

Re: Israel live-tweets assault on Gaza

#146

Post by philwelch » Thu, Nov 15, 2012, 5:37 PM UTC

ominds wrote: post #134

philwelch wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Palestinians do not even have a remote chance of even touching Israel. Tell that to all the Israelis killed by Palestinian terrorism.

What an idiot. Calling genocide and occupation legal and the struggle against occupation terrorism. Poor Israelis who have been killed by these terrorists! Here are the number of Palestinians/Israelis killed since 1948. This is no two-state battle as it's portrayed to be. These numbers indicate nothing but genocide. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_con...

So you support suicide bombing and rocket strikes against civilian targets?

Re: Israel live-tweets assault on Gaza

#147

Post by philwelch » Thu, Nov 15, 2012, 7:44 PM UTC

illuminate wrote: post #143

philwelch wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California has been "invaded" and the existing set of people "driven out" what, two times going on three now? (The Spanish driving out the Indians, Americans driving out the Mexicans, and now Hispanics immigrating at record rates driving out white Americans). This narrative about driving people out is an oversimplification at best, though, just as much for Israel as for California.

"and now Hispanics immigrating at record rates driving out white Americans)." How on earth is the former causally linked to the latter?

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But people can (and do) build that kind of narrative all the time, which was my real point. The reality is always more complicated.

Re: Israel live-tweets assault on Gaza

#148

Post by philwelch » Thu, Nov 15, 2012, 7:55 PM UTC

vhf wrote: post #142

philwelch wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that the West Bank isn't exactly sovereign territory of anyone. If it was, settlements would be a non-issue--some Israelis want to move into Palestine, it's up to the Palestinian immigration authorities, just like if some Egyptians wanted to move into Israel today. But there are no Palestinian immigration authorities, just the Israeli government, and since that government is democratic that puts them i…

I mostly agree with your comment except for the first sentence. The problem is that while Arafat officially recognized Israel in 1993, Israel never reciprocated. Would it still be war if Israel recognized the right for a Palestinian State to exist, and how this Palestinian demand for a right to have a state can be denied by people who asked for the exact same thing and obtained it (leading to the existence of Israel)…

There isn't really a de facto Palestinian state to recognize, unfortunately. In the dying days of the Clinton administration Barak offered Arafat a recognized Palestinian state, but Arafat didn't agree to the terms. Maybe the terms were unreasonable, but most sources agree that Arafat didn't even bother with a counteroffer. Sharon made enough concessions to the Palestinians to alienate his own party. Even Netanyahu acknowledged the right of Palestinians to their own state in May, though I'm not optimistic on the chances of him successfully negotiating terms. Still, the two-state solution is agreed in principle. It would be a positive development for Israel to officially commit to that, though.

Re: Israel live-tweets assault on Gaza

#149

Post by illuminate » Thu, Nov 15, 2012, 8:00 PM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #147

illuminate wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"and now Hispanics immigrating at record rates driving out white Americans)." How on earth is the former causally linked to the latter?

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But people can (and do) build that kind of narrative all the time, which was my real point. The reality is always more complicated.

I see. I still don't think white flight is a valid comparison to military operations and bulldozing settlements.

Re: Israel live-tweets assault on Gaza

#150

Post by ominds » Thu, Nov 15, 2012, 8:46 PM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #146

ominds wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What an idiot. Calling genocide and occupation legal and the struggle against occupation terrorism. Poor Israelis who have been killed by these terrorists! Here are the number of Palestinians/Israelis killed since 1948. This is no two-state battle as it's portrayed to be. These numbers indicate nothing but genocide. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_con...

So you support suicide bombing and rocket strikes against civilian targets?

Check the numbers. In 2009 Israel killed 1034, Palestinians killed... 9!!! That's around 115 for each one Israeli killed. That's genocide, not retaliation. And it's done with US military jet fighters and tanks, that Palestinians don't have (talk about terrorism!)

Let's look at it simply, Israel has the land, settlements in Palestinian territory, denying right of return and controlling East Jerusalem. All of which are Palestinian rights according to the UN. Give them back and whine all you want about terrorism to the world, until you do, any attacks on you are legitimate. And your retaliation is nothing other than trying to subject a free people to surrender their rights, which they never will.