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Windows 9x Subsystem for Linux

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Re: Windows 9x Subsystem for Linux

#251
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, seriously, give an ash-derivative a try. Dash has been benchmarked as 4x faster than bash. The bash manpage ends by stating that "bash is too big, and too slow."

> No, seriously, give an ash-derivative a try. To solve the problem or because you saw "slow" and "bash" and wanted to bring up something cool but unrelated? If I go from 10 seconds of forking and .04 seconds of shell to 10 seconds of forking and .01 seconds of shell, I don't actually care about how cool and fast the shell is. And I've never had the speed of bash itself be a problem.

No, because the Ada gsh also proved that the POSIX shell syntax could perform far better.

Bash is prominent in announcing that it is "too big and too slow." It has said this for years. Why are its supporters so firmly in denial?

Re: Windows 9x Subsystem for Linux

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Qt looks nice as a user and gnome gtk isn’t too bad either

Wx isn’t bad either. https://wxwidgets.org/ You don’t get an app that looks the same across platforms. You do get apps that look like they belong on your platform, even though the code is cross-platform. It uses the native toolkit no matter where you run it across Windows, GTK, Qt, Motif, macOS/Carbon, macOS/Cocoa, and X11 with generic widgets. Older platforms are also supported, like OS/2, Irix, and OSF/1. https://w…

> [Wx] uses the native toolkit no matter where you run it

This is false. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24250968 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24259040 It was false in 2020 and it is still false today (I just checked).

I wish the Wx proponents would stop saying these things. Who exactly are you trying to fool? Do you have no concept of reputational damage? What good comes from a claim that is so easily disproven by just installing a Wx application and looking?

Re: Windows 9x Subsystem for Linux

#253
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, seriously, give an ash-derivative a try. Dash has been benchmarked as 4x faster than bash. The bash manpage ends by stating that "bash is too big, and too slow."

> No, seriously, give an ash-derivative a try. To solve the problem or because you saw "slow" and "bash" and wanted to bring up something cool but unrelated? If I go from 10 seconds of forking and .04 seconds of shell to 10 seconds of forking and .01 seconds of shell, I don't actually care about how cool and fast the shell is. And I've never had the speed of bash itself be a problem.

  $ rpm -q bash
  bash-5.1.8-9.el9.x86_64

  $ man bash | sed -n '/BUGS/,/^$/p'
  BUGS
       It's too big and too slow.

Re: Windows 9x Subsystem for Linux

#254
post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, seriously, give an ash-derivative a try. To solve the problem or because you saw "slow" and "bash" and wanted to bring up something cool but unrelated? If I go from 10 seconds of forking and .04 seconds of shell to 10 seconds of forking and .01 seconds of shell, I don't actually care about how cool and fast the shell is. And I've never had the speed of bash itself be a problem.

$ rpm -q bash bash-5.1.8-9.el9.x86_64 $ man bash | sed -n '/BUGS/,/^$/p' BUGS It's too big and too slow.

[deleted]

Re: Windows 9x Subsystem for Linux

#255
post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, seriously, give an ash-derivative a try. To solve the problem or because you saw "slow" and "bash" and wanted to bring up something cool but unrelated? If I go from 10 seconds of forking and .04 seconds of shell to 10 seconds of forking and .01 seconds of shell, I don't actually care about how cool and fast the shell is. And I've never had the speed of bash itself be a problem.

No, because the Ada gsh also proved that the POSIX shell syntax could perform far better. Bash is prominent in announcing that it is "too big and too slow." It has said this for years. Why are its supporters so firmly in denial?

Your focus here, with a whole comment just quoting the line, makes it sound like you're motivated by smugness, not an actual attempt to help.

Optimizations are cool and all, but being 4x faster at something that's already taking negligible time is not something that makes a big difference.

How long ago was that line written anyway? It feels like complaining about emacs using its "8 megabytes" of memory in the modern day.

The solution to this problem is to reduce the number of forks. Faster code on either side is aesthetically nice but unhelpful.

It's not "denial" to acknowledge that an already-fast program has a faster replacement and then get back to working on the bottlenecks.

Re: Windows 9x Subsystem for Linux

#256
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wx isn’t bad either. https://wxwidgets.org/ You don’t get an app that looks the same across platforms. You do get apps that look like they belong on your platform, even though the code is cross-platform. It uses the native toolkit no matter where you run it across Windows, GTK, Qt, Motif, macOS/Carbon, macOS/Cocoa, and X11 with generic widgets. Older platforms are also supported, like OS/2, Irix, and OSF/1. https://w…

> [Wx] uses the native toolkit no matter where you run it This is false. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24250968 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24259040 It was false in 2020 and it is still false today (I just checked). I wish the Wx proponents would stop saying these things. Who exactly are you trying to fool? Do you have no concept of reputational damage? What good comes from a claim that is so easily d…

Do you understand the difference between a toolkit API and a graphical widget?

I’m not trying to fool anyone. I'm not affiliated with the project. I’m just aware of it and have used it a few times. You, on the other hand, have called me a liar and a fraud because I repeated exactly what the project docs state and which your two links do nothing to contradict. In fact, you linked to yourself being corrected by the actual maintainer of the project. Did you read anything he wrote?

Re: Windows 9x Subsystem for Linux

#257
post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Colinux was a tech feat, just not that many people noticed.

Yes (coLinux author). What I especially like about this Windows 9x Subsystem project, is that it proves that coLinux could have been written way earlier. Now imagine how less dual booting we would have needed in 1996 if that happened, and how it would have affected VMware which only existed since 1998.

A bit late thanks, and a respectful hat tip.

Re: Windows 9x Subsystem for Linux

#258
post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, because the Ada gsh also proved that the POSIX shell syntax could perform far better. Bash is prominent in announcing that it is "too big and too slow." It has said this for years. Why are its supporters so firmly in denial?

Your focus here, with a whole comment just quoting the line, makes it sound like you're motivated by smugness, not an actual attempt to help. Optimizations are cool and all, but being 4x faster at something that's already taking negligible time is not something that makes a big difference. How long ago was that line written anyway? It feels like complaining about emacs using its "8 megabytes" of memory in the modern…

I actually need a fast shell.

So did Debian and Ubuntu, so they demoted bash.

Whatever smugness you are interpreting here is diametrically opposed to the facts of this situation, and repeat after me:

It’s too big and too slow.

Re: Windows 9x Subsystem for Linux

#259
post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your focus here, with a whole comment just quoting the line, makes it sound like you're motivated by smugness, not an actual attempt to help. Optimizations are cool and all, but being 4x faster at something that's already taking negligible time is not something that makes a big difference. How long ago was that line written anyway? It feels like complaining about emacs using its "8 megabytes" of memory in the modern…

I actually need a fast shell. So did Debian and Ubuntu, so they demoted bash. Whatever smugness you are interpreting here is diametrically opposed to the facts of this situation, and repeat after me: It’s too big and too slow.

> diametrically opposed to the facts of this situation

What do you think 'this situation' is?

Repeat after me: The situation is that fork is using almost all the runtime.

The only solutions are fixing fork or forking less. Your suggestions are not related to the actual problem the user is having.

Re: Windows 9x Subsystem for Linux

#260
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [Wx] uses the native toolkit no matter where you run it This is false. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24250968 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24259040 It was false in 2020 and it is still false today (I just checked). I wish the Wx proponents would stop saying these things. Who exactly are you trying to fool? Do you have no concept of reputational damage? What good comes from a claim that is so easily d…

Do you understand the difference between a toolkit API and a graphical widget? I’m not trying to fool anyone. I'm not affiliated with the project. I’m just aware of it and have used it a few times. You, on the other hand, have called me a liar and a fraud because I repeated exactly what the project docs state and which your two links do nothing to contradict. In fact, you linked to yourself being corrected by the act…

> Do you understand the difference between a toolkit API and a graphical widget?

I think I do. I have taken a few minutes on the Web to compare that what I had in mind is correct. What was the point of asking this question? Was it to trap me in a gotcha, or paint me as clueless, or what?

> have called me a liar and a fraud because I repeated exactly what the project docs state

Good, you realise you are taking on the claims made by Wx on paper. However, there's more to the world. To get the full picture, you have to also engage with what I have listed. The docs say one thing, the reality shown in the screenshots say another. There is a contradiction. It remains unresolved, not for lack of trying on my part.

> your two links do nothing to contradict

You are not further allowed by me to invalidate what I was writing about by simply disregarding the evidence. Engage with the points I was making. The differences in look and feel between Wx and native are plain for everyone to see and verify. So, what now? Who is right?

> Did you read anything he wrote?

Yes. Examine this:

his claim> OTOH all the standard UI elements (buttons, checkboxes, text controls, date pickers, ...) are native

my counter-evidence> Well, let's verify that… https://i.imgur.com/uHfjoUs.png No, they're not.

his deflection> Sorry, I don't know what is this supposed to prove

So instead of admitting that there is a contradiction, he just pretends to not understand it.

Also examine this:

> look good

> look good

> looks fine

> look good

I never mentioned anything about looking good, this is a distraction designed to deflect from the central point I was making. As I wrote before, the central point made by me remains completely unaddressed.

Alas, I cannot deal with those crazy-making techniques, his behaviour measured by outcome is indistinguishable from the mentally ill. With the help and advice from a friend, I came to the conclusion that it was not safe for me to respond, so I then decided not to.

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