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I am building a cloud

crawshaw.io

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Re: I am building a cloud

#211

Post by collimarco »

dajonker wrote: post #74

> Making Kubernetes good is inherently impossible, a project in putting (admittedly high quality) lipstick on a pig. So well put, my good sir, this describes exactly my feelings with k8s. It always starts off all good with just managing a couple of containers to run your web app. Then before you know it, the devops folks have decided that they need to put a gazillion other services and an entire software-defined netw…

Kubernetes is not bad, it's just low level. Most applications share the exact same needs (proof: you could run any web app on a simple platform like Heroku). That's why some years ago I built an open source tool (with 0 dependencies) that simplify Kubernetes deployments with a compact syntax which works well for 99% of web apps (instead of allowing any configuration, it makes many "opinionated" choices): https://github.com/cuber-cloud/cuber-gem I have been using it for all the company web apps and web services for years and everything works nicely. It can also auto scale easily and that allows us to manage huge spikes of traffic for web push (Pushpad) at a reasonable price (good luck if you used a VM - no scaling - or if you used a PaaS - very high costs).

Re: I am building a cloud

#212

Post by Jn2G3Np8 »

faangguyindia wrote: post #9

i just use Hetzner. Everything which cloud companies provide just cost so much, my own postgres running with HA setup and backup cost me 1/10th the price of RDS or CloudSQL service running in production over 10 years with no downtime. i directly autoscales instances off of the Metrics harvested from graphana it works fine for us, we've autoscaler configured via webhooks. Very simple and never failed us. i don't know…

Also using Hetzner.

But I came across Mythic Beasts (https://www.mythic-beasts.com/) yesterday, similar idea, UK based. Not used them yet but made the account for the next VPS.

Re: I am building a cloud

#213

Post by ratg13 »

yard2010 wrote: post #98
faangguyindia wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i was just curious so i tested this actually. Using fio Hetzner (cx23, 2vCPU, 4 GB) ~3900 IOPS (read/write) ~15.3 MB/s avg latency ~2.1 ms 99.9th percentile ≈ ~5 ms max ≈ ~7 ms DigitalOcean (SFO1 / 2 GB RAM / 30 GB Disk) ~3900 IOPS (same!) ~15.7 MB/s (same!) avg latency ~2.1 ms (same!) 99.9th percentile ≈ ~18 ms max ≈ ~85 ms (!!) using sequential dd Hetzner: 1.9 GB/s DO: 850 MB/s Using low end plan on both but this H…

I love Hetzner so much. I'm not affiliated I'm a really happy customer these guys just do everything right.

As long as you never have to interact with them. If you run into issues they have caused themselves, you'll find yourself dealing with a unique mix of arrogance and incompetence.

Re: I am building a cloud

#214

Post by jasongi »

mattbee wrote: post #189
faangguyindia wrote: post #9

i just use Hetzner. Everything which cloud companies provide just cost so much, my own postgres running with HA setup and backup cost me 1/10th the price of RDS or CloudSQL service running in production over 10 years with no downtime. i directly autoscales instances off of the Metrics harvested from graphana it works fine for us, we've autoscaler configured via webhooks. Very simple and never failed us. i don't know…

I founded a hosting company 25 years ago when User-Mode Linux was the hot new virtualisation tech. We aspired to just replicate the dedicated server experience because that was obviously how you deploy services with the most flexibility, and UML made it so cheap! Through the 2010s I (extremely wrongly) assumed that being metered on each little part of their stack was not something most developers would choose, for th…

> I find it hard to believe that the knowledge to manage a bunch of dedicated servers is that arcane that people wouldn't choose it for this kind of gigantic saving.

Managing servers is fine. Managing servers well is hard for the average person. Many hand-rolled hosting setups I've encountered includes fun gems such as:

- undocumented config drift.

- one unit of availability (downtime required for offline upgrades, resizing or maintenance)

- very out of date OS/libraries (usually due to the first two issues)

- generally awful security configurations. The easiest configuration being open ports for SSH and/or database connections, which probably have passwords (if they didn't you'd immediately be pwned)

Cloud architecture might be annoying and complex for many use-cases, but if you've ever been the person who had to pick up someone else's "pet" and start making changes or just maintaining it you'll know why the it can be nice to have cloud arch put some of their constraints on how infra is provisioned and be willing to pay for it.

Re: I am building a cloud

#215

Post by JokerDan »

I have had an eye on this for a while (found via pi.dev) but I don't really have a solid use case for it, but the idea/concept of is appealing where the price is not. I can buy a £100-150 mini-pc with better hardware to run 24/7 for my own VMs extending my homelab (granted my ISP doesn't put any restrictions on me, I know many others can't say the same).

You can see their base docker image here - https://github.com/boldsoftware/exeuntu

Re: I am building a cloud

#216

Post by ButlerianJihad »

tlb wrote: post #165

I think clouds pay a huge abstraction penalty to allow tiny VMs. I guess it helps with onboarding and $10 personal VPNs. But I have never needed a fraction of a computer. I want to rent some number of full computers of various sizes, consisting of CPU, memory, and flash disk. Hetzner is closer than AWS, and I think/hope that’s what Crawshaw is aiming for.

The key to renting a fraction of a computer is scaling up. If I can rent 1/8th of a computer, I can also rent 3/8ths and 1/2 and then go to a full computer, if that capacity is necessary.

The key to scaling up is to have big-enough hardware on the backend. If Hetzner is renting out bare metal instances then they can only rent out the sizes that they have. If a cloud provider invests in really big single systems, they can offer fractions of those systems to multiple tenants, some of whom scale up to use the entire system, and some who don't. I think that is a win-win.

A fractional VM is also a fungible VM. If the tenant calls to spin up a certain size VM, then the backend can find suitable hardware for it from a menu of sizes. Smaller VMs can slot in anywhere there is room, not just on a designated bare-metal system.

A cloud provider is always going to want to maximize their rack space, wattage/heat, and resource usage. So they will invest in high-density systems at every chance. On the other hand, cloud tenants will have diverse needs, including some fraction of those big computers.

Re: I am building a cloud

#217

Post by wutwutwat »

collimarco wrote: post #211
dajonker wrote: post #74

> Making Kubernetes good is inherently impossible, a project in putting (admittedly high quality) lipstick on a pig. So well put, my good sir, this describes exactly my feelings with k8s. It always starts off all good with just managing a couple of containers to run your web app. Then before you know it, the devops folks have decided that they need to put a gazillion other services and an entire software-defined netw…

Kubernetes is not bad, it's just low level. Most applications share the exact same needs (proof: you could run any web app on a simple platform like Heroku). That's why some years ago I built an open source tool (with 0 dependencies) that simplify Kubernetes deployments with a compact syntax which works well for 99% of web apps (instead of allowing any configuration, it makes many "opinionated" choices): https://gith…

It's not just low level, in most cases, it's also overkill.

Most companies aren't "web scale" ™ and don't need an orchestrator built for google level elasticity, they need a vm autoscaling group if anything.

Most apps don't need such granular control over fs access, network policies, root access, etc, they need `ufw allow 80 && ufw enable`

Most apps don't need a 15 stage, docker layer caching optimized, archive promotion build pipeline that takes 30 minutes to get a copy change shipped to prod, they need a `git clone me@github.com:me/mine.git release_01 && ln -s release_01 /var/www/me/mine/current`

This is coming from someone who has had roles both as a backend product engineer and as a devops/platform engineer, who has been around long enough to remember "deploy" to prod was eclipse ftping php files straight to the prod server on file save. I manage clusters for a living for companies that went full k8s and never should have gone full k8s. ECS would have worked for 99% of these apps, if they even needed that.

Just like the js ecosystem went bat shit insane until things started to swing back towards sanity and people started to trim the needless bloat, the same is coming or due for the overcomplexity of devops/backend deployments

Re: I am building a cloud

#218

Post by liveoneggs »

chrisweekly wrote: post #207
darkwater wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the average developer doesn't even know where to start to deploy things in prod. When the feature product asks passes QA... to the next sprint! we are done!

Whose responsibility is it to establish the prerequisite CICD pipelines, HITL workflows, and Observability infr in order for devs to shepherd changes to prod (and track their impact)? Hint: it's not the developer's.

But those things all require more pods on the cluster! We've looped back around to the beginning.

Re: I am building a cloud

#219

Post by darkwater »

liveoneggs wrote: post #218
chrisweekly wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whose responsibility is it to establish the prerequisite CICD pipelines, HITL workflows, and Observability infr in order for devs to shepherd changes to prod (and track their impact)? Hint: it's not the developer's.

But those things all require more pods on the cluster! We've looped back around to the beginning.

Exactly my point. But then developers: "I just want to go to my Heroku days again!" but then with a sufficient big company there are maaany developers doing things their slightly different way, and then other effects start compounding, and then costs go up because 15 different teams are using 27 different solutions and and and...

But yeah, let's just spin-up a shadow IT VM with Debian like GP said, it's easy!

Re: I am building a cloud

#220

Post by whalesalad »

dajonker wrote: post #74

> Making Kubernetes good is inherently impossible, a project in putting (admittedly high quality) lipstick on a pig. So well put, my good sir, this describes exactly my feelings with k8s. It always starts off all good with just managing a couple of containers to run your web app. Then before you know it, the devops folks have decided that they need to put a gazillion other services and an entire software-defined netw…

Your use case is very small and simple. Of course a single VM works. You’re changing a literal A record at CF to deploy confirms this.

That is not what kube is designed for.

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