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I am building a cloud

crawshaw.io

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Re: I am building a cloud

#141

Post by nopurpose »

From the linked blog post:

> The standard price for a GB of egress from a cloud provider is 10x what you pay racking a server in a normal data center.

From the exe.dev pricing page:

> additional data transfer $0.07/GB/month

So at least on the network price promise they don't seem to deliver, still costs an arm and a leg like your neighbourhood hyperscaler.

Overall service looks interesting, I like simplicity with convenience, something which packet.net deliberately decided not to offer at the time.

Re: I am building a cloud

#142

Post by gloomyday »

ferngodfather wrote: post #121
dajonker wrote: post #74

> Making Kubernetes good is inherently impossible, a project in putting (admittedly high quality) lipstick on a pig. So well put, my good sir, this describes exactly my feelings with k8s. It always starts off all good with just managing a couple of containers to run your web app. Then before you know it, the devops folks have decided that they need to put a gazillion other services and an entire software-defined netw…

Cloud providers have put a lot of time and effort into making you believe every web app needs 99.9999% availability. Making you pay for auto scaled compute, load balancers, shared storage, HA databases, etc, etc. All of this just adds so much extra complexity. If I'm running Amazon.com then sure, but your average app is just fine on a single VM.

Marketing has such a gigantic influence in our field. It is absolutely insane. It feels unavoidable, since IT is (was?) constantly filled with new blood that picks up where people left off.

Re: I am building a cloud

#143

Post by ororoo »

Thanemate wrote: post #137
adamtulinius wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you spin up Kubernetes for "a couple of containers to run your web app", I think you're doing something wrong in the first place, also coupled with your comment about adding SDN to Kubernetes. People use Kubernetes for way too small things, and it sounds like you don't have the scale for actually running Kubernetes.

I know that "resume-driven development" exists, where the tradeoffs between approaches aren't about the technical fit of the solution but the career trajectory. I've seen people making plain workstation preparation scripts using Rust, only to have something to flex about in interviews. I'm not surprised even in the slightest that DevOps workers will slap k8s on everything, to show "real industry experience" in a job…

there are alsp people with devops title that do not know anything else than the hammer, and then everything is a hammer problem.

I mean, I worked with people who were suprised that you can run more applications inside ec2 vm than just 1 app.

Re: I am building a cloud

#144

Post by lelanthran »

_el1s7 wrote: post #117
fragmede wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cloud vendor pricing often isn't based on cost. Business 101 teaches us that pricing isn't based on cost. Call it top down vs bottom up pricing, but the first principles "it costs me $X to make a widget, so 1.y * $X = sell the product for $Y is not how pricing works in practice.

That's not a business 101.

> That's not a business 101.

It kinda is, but obscured by GP's formula.

More simply; if it costs you $X to produce a product and the market is willing to pay $Y (which has no relation to $X), why would you price it as a function of $X?

If it costs me $10 to make a widget and the market is happy to pay $100, why would I base my pricing on $10 * 1.$MARGIN?

Re: I am building a cloud

#145

Post by darkwater »

dajonker wrote: post #93
adamtulinius wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you spin up Kubernetes for "a couple of containers to run your web app", I think you're doing something wrong in the first place, also coupled with your comment about adding SDN to Kubernetes. People use Kubernetes for way too small things, and it sounds like you don't have the scale for actually running Kubernetes.

I totally agree, but that's not what happens in reality: the average devops knows k8s and will slap it onto anything they see (if only so they can put in on their resume). The average manager hears about k8s, gets convinced they need and hires beforementioned devops to build it.

And the average developer doesn't even know where to start to deploy things in prod. When the feature product asks passes QA... to the next sprint! we are done!

Re: I am building a cloud

#146

Post by carefree-bob »

lelanthran wrote: post #144
_el1s7 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not a business 101.

> That's not a business 101. It kinda is, but obscured by GP's formula. More simply; if it costs you $X to produce a product and the market is willing to pay $Y (which has no relation to $X), why would you price it as a function of $X? If it costs me $10 to make a widget and the market is happy to pay $100, why would I base my pricing on $10 * 1.$MARGIN?

Exactly. The mechanism by which the price ends up as X plus margin is just competition. Others enter the market and compete with you until the returns are driven down to the rental rate of capital. Any barriers to entry result in higher margins.

But that is an equilibrium result, and famously does not apply to monopolies, where elasticity of substitution will determine the premium over the rental rate of capital.

Re: I am building a cloud

#147

Post by omnimus »

lifty wrote: post #129
TiccyRobby wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly I like Hetzner a lot but lately it has been very unstable for us. https://status.hetzner.com/ this page always has couple of incidents happening at the same time. I really appreciate the services they provide but i wish they were more stable.

There are several things going on even now, 1 hour after your comment. But I appreciate that they list them. That hopefully means that they have a good culture of honesty, and they can improve.

I looked through the issues and basically only ongoing thing is that backup power is not working in one of the data centers (could be a problem). The rest are warnings about planned shutdown of some services and speed limitation of object storage in one location.

I am sure it's luck but we have few hetzner VPSes in both German locations and in last 5 years afaik they've never been down. On our http monitor service they have 100s of days uptime only because we restarted them ourselves.

Re: I am building a cloud

#148

Post by serbrech »

dajonker wrote: post #74

> Making Kubernetes good is inherently impossible, a project in putting (admittedly high quality) lipstick on a pig. So well put, my good sir, this describes exactly my feelings with k8s. It always starts off all good with just managing a couple of containers to run your web app. Then before you know it, the devops folks have decided that they need to put a gazillion other services and an entire software-defined netw…

Yes, I mean, I’m an engineer on a cloud Kubernetes service, and I don’t run Kubernetes for my home services. I just run podman quadlets (systems units). But that is entirely different from an enterprise scale setup with monitoring, alerting, and scale in mind…

Re: I am building a cloud

#149

Post by yread »

zuhsetaqi wrote: post #135
faangguyindia wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i was just curious so i tested this actually. Using fio Hetzner (cx23, 2vCPU, 4 GB) ~3900 IOPS (read/write) ~15.3 MB/s avg latency ~2.1 ms 99.9th percentile ≈ ~5 ms max ≈ ~7 ms DigitalOcean (SFO1 / 2 GB RAM / 30 GB Disk) ~3900 IOPS (same!) ~15.7 MB/s (same!) avg latency ~2.1 ms (same!) 99.9th percentile ≈ ~18 ms max ≈ ~85 ms (!!) using sequential dd Hetzner: 1.9 GB/s DO: 850 MB/s Using low end plan on both but this H…

Just for comparison I use the cheapest netcup root server: RS 1000 G12 AMD EPYC™ 9645 8 GB DDR5 RAM (ECC) 4 dedicated cores 256 GB NVMe Costs 12,79 € Results with the follwing command: fio --name=randreadwrite \ --filename=testfile \ --size=5G \ --bs=4k \ --rw=randrw \ --rwmixread=70 \ --iodepth=32 \ --ioengine=libaio \ --direct=1 \ --numjobs=4 \ --runtime=60 \ --time_based \ --group_reporting IOPS Read: 70.1k IOPS W…

Nice, on Hetzner AX41-nvme (~50 eur, from 2020) non-raid I get:

IOPS: read 325k, write 139k

Throughput: read 1271MB/s, write 545MB/s

Latency: read avg 0.3ms, P99.9 2.7ms, max 20ms; write: 0.14ms, P99.9 0.35ms max 3.3ms

so roughly 100 times iops and throughput of the cloud VMs

Re: I am building a cloud

#150

Post by omnimus »

kippinsula wrote: post #108
faangguyindia wrote: post #9

i just use Hetzner. Everything which cloud companies provide just cost so much, my own postgres running with HA setup and backup cost me 1/10th the price of RDS or CloudSQL service running in production over 10 years with no downtime. i directly autoscales instances off of the Metrics harvested from graphana it works fine for us, we've autoscaler configured via webhooks. Very simple and never failed us. i don't know…

we've done both. Hetzner dedicated was genuinely fine, until a disk started throwing SMART warnings on a Sunday morning and we remembered why we pay 10x elsewhere for some things. probably less about the raw cost and more about which weekends you want back.

Isn't this nature of every dedicated server? You also take on the hardware management burden - that's why they can be insanely cheap.

But there is middleground in form of VPS, where hardware is managed by the provider. It's still way way cheaper than some cloud magic service.

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