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Israeli soldiers using sexual assault to force Palestinians out of West Bank

theguardian.com

111–120 of 133 posts

Re: Israeli soldiers using sexual assault to force Palestinians out of West Bank

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dad? Sure. Grandfather? Maybe. Great-grandfather? Let it go.

And how do you map that onto the timescales of states? Because even on the human scale, my grandparents were around for the British Mandate in Palestine. The British government had to win my own lifetime apologise for atrocities carried out in Northern Ireland.

The day my grandma went to school for the first day of her fourth grade, Germans launched an invasion on our country, starting WW2. During the process they set up death camps on industrial scale, and bombed our capital city to oblivion just to set an example.

My grandma died peacefully last winter. I think it's time to move on.

Re: Israeli soldiers using sexual assault to force Palestinians out of West Bank

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Arab citizens can vote Call me when the citizens in Gaza and the West Bank get a vote. Oh, they're citizens of another country you say? What country would that be? Like, it's great that Israeli Arabs are treated (somewhat) well, but it doesn't excuse what's happening in Gaza and (particularly) in the West Bank. Regardless of how progressive or democratic a state is, if they keep bombing other states and killing peo…

> It's profoundly depressing that the Jewish people, fresh off of 2k years of oppression, have decided to speedrun the same behaviours against someone else. I know it can seem like this but it's important to make the distinction that Jewish people are not the same set as zionists and israelis, and that conflation is something the latter two parties DESPERATELY want you to make.

That's totally fair and a distinction I definitely support. I really, really really like almost all of the Israeli people and Jewish people I've met and worked with, and hence why I care about this a lot.

Re: Israeli soldiers using sexual assault to force Palestinians out of West Bank

#113
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's crazy to me that you know this and yet it seems like you are still in support of the US protecting Israel? You still think this is a net win for the world? That's incomprehensible to me. It's crazy to me that you know the UN is literally run by states that actually commit war crimes, kill LGBTQ people, suppress women and minority rights, countries like Iran, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and you still think UN condemna…

> Arab citizens can vote Call me when the citizens in Gaza and the West Bank get a vote. Oh, they're citizens of another country you say? What country would that be? Like, it's great that Israeli Arabs are treated (somewhat) well, but it doesn't excuse what's happening in Gaza and (particularly) in the West Bank. Regardless of how progressive or democratic a state is, if they keep bombing other states and killing peo…

> Call me when the citizens in Gaza and the West Bank get a vote.

They can. They voted in Hamas in Gaza and the PA in the West Bank. They are not Israeli citizens, which is why they don't vote in Israeli elections. You wouldn't expect the US to give voting rights to Mexicans or Canadians who aren't dual citizens, would you?

> Like, it's great that Israeli Arabs are treated (somewhat) well

"Somewhat"? They get subsidized education, skip mandatory military service, and in some cases receive more benefits than the Jewish population through affirmative action. Gaza and the West Bank aren't part of Israel. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 and handed civil control of the West Bank to the Palestinian Authority under the Oslo Accords.

> if they keep bombing other states and killing people

Nice summary for wars that were NEVER started by Israel. And before you mention Iran, it has been at war with Israel since 1979, the moment it declared it would erase Israel off the face of the Earth, and has been actively attacking Israel through its proxies (Hamas, Hezbollah) for decades.

Re: Israeli soldiers using sexual assault to force Palestinians out of West Bank

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how do you map that onto the timescales of states? Because even on the human scale, my grandparents were around for the British Mandate in Palestine. The British government had to win my own lifetime apologise for atrocities carried out in Northern Ireland.

The day my grandma went to school for the first day of her fourth grade, Germans launched an invasion on our country, starting WW2. During the process they set up death camps on industrial scale, and bombed our capital city to oblivion just to set an example. My grandma died peacefully last winter. I think it's time to move on.

An example of what? You're not making any clear point or engaging with what I asked you.

Re: Israeli soldiers using sexual assault to force Palestinians out of West Bank

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's profoundly depressing that the Jewish people, fresh off of 2k years of oppression, have decided to speedrun the same behaviours against someone else. I know it can seem like this but it's important to make the distinction that Jewish people are not the same set as zionists and israelis, and that conflation is something the latter two parties DESPERATELY want you to make.

That's totally fair and a distinction I definitely support. I really, really really like almost all of the Israeli people and Jewish people I've met and worked with, and hence why I care about this a lot.

[deleted]

Re: Israeli soldiers using sexual assault to force Palestinians out of West Bank

#116
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the passive voice is meant to protect the perpetrators. Instead, they are presenting sexual assault as a deliberate tactic or policy, or at least a common pattern. If true, this is a much bigger story than isolated incidents of violence. But sixteen reported cases over three years seems very low. Likely there are more cases they missed. Mainly it seems like they have very little data.

More likely, they already knew what they wanted to say, data or no data: Israel/US, bad: global revolution, good. They have to keep the pressure up so they need to write papers and get articles written about those papers and then get them posted on hacker news regardless of what actually happened. It’s a constant grind, but I suppose it will all be worth it for them if they get appointed on the committee of the vangu…

So you don't view the genocide that's happening right now as bad? Or the US support for it? Noted.

Re: Israeli soldiers using sexual assault to force Palestinians out of West Bank

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US support for Netanyahu is one of the most horrible things imaginable. US support for a non-Netanyahu Israel may not be so much. The distinction is important, at the very least so people don't call you an anti-Semite. But even without that, I think it's important. I'm anti-Trump, anti-Netanyahu, anti-Hamas, and anti-IRGC, but not anti-US, anti-Israel, anti-Palestine or anti-Iran. The citizens of those countries are…

I said what I said; israel is the problem, I have no significant beef with Judaism (no more than any religion and less than some). https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-extremes-of-israe...

I recommend you read the book World of Yesterday by Stefan Zweig.

The experience of the world Jewry in (pre-)WW2 continental Europe was so shockingly brutal, the establishment of the state of Israel was an inevitability.

Jews were the scapegoat driven out from cities into the desert to amend for other's sins for millenia. Some would say they've gotten used to it.

The bestial conduct of Nazis was such that even the people for whom the experience of persecution was a fact of life and indeed their toleration of the condition almost stoic in nature, came to realize they had to have a place where they are not the Other and won't be scapegoated again. And so it happened.

To paint a picture with words...Stefan Zweig, model intellectual and model European, ended his life in 1942 at age 61 in Brazil, having lost his home of 20 years in Salzburg, his beloved Europe and, in his own words, a large part of himself.

The worst exponents of Europe in Nazi uniforms and their collaborators, the "decent people" of Germany, Austria and other countries, killed the best exponents of Europe and Europeanism, over insane paranoiac deluded hate. Killed them slowly, then quickly. Indirectly, by stripping them of everything they considered theirs, then very directly in extermination facilities. The people who suffered this horror established a state and Europe lost intelligentsia and human capital it could not afford to lose. Fin.

Just five years ago, saying that the state of Israel is the problem would have you branded an anti-semite and driven out of polite society and rightly so. As a non-Jew with no skin in the game, I find the reawakening of these sentiments horrifying.

Re: Israeli soldiers using sexual assault to force Palestinians out of West Bank

#118
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said what I said; israel is the problem, I have no significant beef with Judaism (no more than any religion and less than some). https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-extremes-of-israe...

I recommend you read the book World of Yesterday by Stefan Zweig. The experience of the world Jewry in (pre-)WW2 continental Europe was so shockingly brutal, the establishment of the state of Israel was an inevitability. Jews were the scapegoat driven out from cities into the desert to amend for other's sins for millenia. Some would say they've gotten used to it. The bestial conduct of Nazis was such that even the pe…

> Just five years ago, saying that the state of Israel is the problem would have you branded an anti-semite and driven out of polite society and rightly so. As a non-Jew, I find the reawakening of these sentiments horrifying.

Yes, but society is no longer polite. I hope the memes were worth it.

Re: Israeli soldiers using sexual assault to force Palestinians out of West Bank

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only reason Israel is able to commit the horrors they are is because they can fuck around without finding out due to US protection paid for by our tax dollars, we are absolutely complicit. Of course that's only in the immediate term, I urge you to look at the history of the region even a little critically, so much of the conflict there is rooted in British, American and Israeli meddling, it's an insane take to cl…

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interesting, because a common excuse given for israel's continued occupation of Westbank, Golan heights, and Gaza strip is that without those territories israel would be under threat of destruction by her arab neighbors. which is it?

Re: Israeli soldiers using sexual assault to force Palestinians out of West Bank

#120
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said what I said; israel is the problem, I have no significant beef with Judaism (no more than any religion and less than some). https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-extremes-of-israe...

I recommend you read the book World of Yesterday by Stefan Zweig. The experience of the world Jewry in (pre-)WW2 continental Europe was so shockingly brutal, the establishment of the state of Israel was an inevitability. Jews were the scapegoat driven out from cities into the desert to amend for other's sins for millenia. Some would say they've gotten used to it. The bestial conduct of Nazis was such that even the pe…

this just isn't true, jews didn't have it any worse than non jews in european history, they just like to dwell on their historical instances of suffering. One could argue that jews had it better than the native peoples around them because their population swelled at a higher rate over the duration of their stay, and historically, population growth tracked resource availability.
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