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Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

ashley.rolfmore.com

121–130 of 305 posts

Re: Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

#121
post #17

You assume what they say is the same as what they are thinking The converse is also true. People saying something assume that people listening are understanding and thinking about the same thing. This is why it's important to write things down in details and as-unambiguous-as-you-can forms. If you're in a meeting and someone puts up a slide deck with a 6 word bullet point that 'explains' what they want, that is a sig…

There is a very weird and a very awesome soviet-era movie Kin-dza-dza. At one point one of the characters tells this about the other: "he says things what he does not think, and he thinks things what he does not think."

Re: Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

#122

Even here in the comments you see people who have read this article and fall victim to the very things it’s pointing out. It’s ironic. Let me add a couple to this list. 1. No amount of knowledge or discussion will make a person accept something they don’t want to accept. 2. To truly listen means to place yourself mentally and physically in a vulnerable state. Because you will likely hear things that run contrary to y…

The points in # 2 are profound. I plan on sending this to someone who is dear to me. Maybe he will "listen" to it, too.

Thank you.

Re: Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

#123

Even here in the comments you see people who have read this article and fall victim to the very things it’s pointing out. It’s ironic. Let me add a couple to this list. 1. No amount of knowledge or discussion will make a person accept something they don’t want to accept. 2. To truly listen means to place yourself mentally and physically in a vulnerable state. Because you will likely hear things that run contrary to y…

"To truly listen means to place yourself mentally and physically in a vulnerable state." If you can guarantuee me this will not be abused in every situation ever and/or come back to haunt me, i will gladly always give up as much time as i can to actually listen. :)

I was the yielding type, not speaking up, letting others take charge. In my experience, it's not always worth it, especially if you care about the thing you are working on. I went so far as to just dissociate from everything and distance myself from others. The problem is that people deserve your honest opinion if you care about them, even if it's not what they want to hear. But it's so hard to spend mental energy to listen, correct, try to prove your point... even if you succeed, they will resent you for it.

Re: Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

#124

Even here in the comments you see people who have read this article and fall victim to the very things it’s pointing out. It’s ironic. Let me add a couple to this list. 1. No amount of knowledge or discussion will make a person accept something they don’t want to accept. 2. To truly listen means to place yourself mentally and physically in a vulnerable state. Because you will likely hear things that run contrary to y…

You must be in a position to be convinced yourself, in order to be convincing.

> You must be in a position to be convinced yourself, in order to be convincing.

This claim is demonstrably untrue.

Do you believe that a written argument cannot be convincing? Or do you believe that when you read a written argument, your beliefs can somehow be transmitted back to the author, even if the author is long dead, and be convincing in that author’s mind?

Re: Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

#125
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"To truly listen means to place yourself mentally and physically in a vulnerable state." If you can guarantuee me this will not be abused in every situation ever and/or come back to haunt me, i will gladly always give up as much time as i can to actually listen. :)

Yeah. As phrased it is bad advice - nobody actually needs to be "vulnerable". Everyone should be in a headspace where they might actually change their mind rather than persuade the counterparty, which feels like vulnerability to people who define themselves by their own beliefs. The trick is not to do that; a person isn't their beliefs. People have beliefs, but those can change. They're still a person both before and…

Some people are just too stubborn, especially if they come from a place of authority and seniority. I'm doing house repair work right now with an older relative. He learned how to do repairs and renovations by himself, things like working laminate floors, mortar, laying tiles etc. The things is, he has his own reasoning and rhythym of doing things and doesn't like to be challenged, but I feel his ways don't always make sense, esp when I feel he is rushing and improvising (a programmer can tell). I haven't done much handy work myself in the past, but I'm a millennial, so I google things, watch youtube videos, and I read instructions. I also know that it isn't rocket science, my parents built our own home brick by brick. And now, every step of the way I have to be pushy to get my way, and make it sound like I'm not imposing or too nitpicky or challenging his "expertise", it's very taxing, I made a big scene once already and the whole relationship is now strained.

Re: Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Communication is damn hard, again. Yes, but it is necessary to achieve better results. > Was it because you didn't know what to ask for? Was it because the experts in home improvement didn't volunteer that there are other options? That's bad communication from both sides. Having good information on each of the sides leads to better communication. Client with better communication will have better results for himself…

> Yeah, when I don't know what to ask for, I search for expert who will know what I should ask and will help me with expanding my knowledge of the options. > Yes, I speak from experience of such moments. And did you actually look for an expert or did you just get something from Ikea? Do you even know how to identify an expert furniture designer? One of my points is we think we're damn unique but we aren't. And my exa…

> And did you actually look for an expert or did you just get something from Ikea?

Sorry, but I don't see the point of your comment.

I looked for an expert who helped me with expanding my options. Expert != "will sell his exact product he is trying to sell in the place he is working at". Sometimes as an expert you even have to advise a client against your product, because he will try to use something not designed for him.

> I was in $RANDOM_HOTEL last month. Now I want to redo the attachment system for all my curtains in the house because theirs was smarter than what I knew to ask for.

But did you look for an expert? Expert might suggest a better alternative than you currently have, but you gained information yourself by accident. If not for that happy accident and you being observant, you wouldn't know.

Re: Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

#127
I tend to be very exacting in my word choice. If I used a specific word, I meant it. Many people I find speak in what I would describe as tone poems. They circle around an idea using whatever word is within reach, and expect you to understand the meaning based on shared connotations. These people are tiring to interpret. When I write something, each and every word was chosen specifically and with intention.

The number of times I see my words interpreted as though my choice in words had been imprecise is a near constant source of pain, particularly in the workspace. I might be on the spectrum, I am undiagnosed.

About six months ago I was tasked with building a little RPC for a different division to be able to kick off a long running process and documenting it for them. The documentation was complete, correct, and relatively terse. Less than a page.

I sent my manager the documentation to pass on, and for reasons I will never understand he passed it through AI before handing it over to the other department. No one informed me.

Within a day I start getting feedback that makes zero sense. Seemingly no one can get the RPC to work. I had tested this extensively, the complaints made zero sense. One of the complaints includes the actual request being made and the endpoint is entirely wrong. Not a single character typo, a complete fabrication. I ask where this came from and they point me to the documentation they were sent. Every single thing was wrong. The endpoints were wrong, the required parameters were wrong, there were invented features that do not exist. I am a very easy going guy, and I have genuinely never been so furious in my entire life. I am still angry as I write this. If the job market were not what it is I would have quit there and then.

I feel like people using AI to both read and interpret language is the death of rigorous language. I have genuinely been pondering for months if generative AI is the "Great Filter" preventing space faring civilizations from flourishing. Around the same time a civilization begins to enter space they invent a device that destroys their minds.

Re: Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

#128

Most of the problem is that talking to non technical people is frustrating, they often start like 1. Can u add X 2. Can u change Y Without understanding cost of doing all this. Yes, i can do all and everything you ask for, but each action has a cost, which you fail to understand. We cannot do everything if we need to launch a reliable product.

Then we ask "whys" to understand the non-technical process. Maybe there is no need to add/change anything.

> We cannot do everything if we need to launch a reliable product.

Agreed, otherwise it would be Turing complete Excel/Email clone.

Re: Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

#129
post #127

I tend to be very exacting in my word choice. If I used a specific word, I meant it. Many people I find speak in what I would describe as tone poems. They circle around an idea using whatever word is within reach, and expect you to understand the meaning based on shared connotations. These people are tiring to interpret. When I write something, each and every word was chosen specifically and with intention. The numbe…

Perhaps you should ask the manager why he passed it through AI.

It might be that with precision, readability is lost. It's a tradeoff: the more compressed your language is, and hence the more precise, the more cognitive effort you require the reader to expend on each word. Reading is a translation from your mental model, as expressed in words, to the readers mental model. Words alone don't perform this translation, the act of reading and interpreting does so. With your concision you give no help to the reader in this process.

One suspicion I have is that your one-pager was passed through AI because it was too terse to serve the job of aiding the general reader in obtaining an understanding of the topic for themselves.

Writing to be read by an audience is a vastly different activity than writing notes that merely, precisely, document for the maximally informed highest-context reader (or one willing to do the work of reassembling this context during reading).

When you're writing for others, especially a "generic other", you're expected to adopt their uninformed, low-context, high-difficulty reading position, and fill-out the prose in an aid to their understanding.

This will involve: repetition (restatement with different words and ideas), illustration with simple examples, grounding in examples most likely to be familiar to them, explicit statement of steps/procedures/processes that breakdown topics/actions into small units which are each easy to immediately understand, possibly: some humor to break the effort of reading, some asides which engage or interest the reader, some context which makes the reading reelvant to them so they will be willing to expend the effort to read it.

Re: Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

#130
post #127

I tend to be very exacting in my word choice. If I used a specific word, I meant it. Many people I find speak in what I would describe as tone poems. They circle around an idea using whatever word is within reach, and expect you to understand the meaning based on shared connotations. These people are tiring to interpret. When I write something, each and every word was chosen specifically and with intention. The numbe…

I recently had a similar experience. I wrote a 4-page specification. The person receiving it had an LLM summarize it in a few bullet points instead of reading through it. I got a proposal which doesn't match the need, and then he complained that my objections should have been mentioned in the spec in the first place (they were, but not in his LLM summary).

It's just frustrating. I'm not one that obsesses over the meaning of every word, but there's no way a summary in 10 bullet points can contain all the information from a 4-page document.

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