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Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

ashley.rolfmore.com

11–20 of 305 posts

Re: Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

#11
Agree with the problem but this list reads like a vent.

Communicating effectively is the central problem of all humanity!

This vent criticizes developers for not knowing how to listen. that's why it comes off condescending. The root problem is that people don't know what they don't know.

The best communicators are translators. People listen because the message becomes self evident in their understanding.

It's hardly a breakdown because everyone is acting like a toddler with their fingers in their ears.

This is ironically why we reach for systems and engineering. The system can build in gap detection and frameworks for translation. It's not perfect and creates its own problems but scolding each unit human to listen better does nothing for the collective environment: the team, the company… the system.

Re: Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

#12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or maybe we're spending too much time on communicating. This is a phenomena I have yet to experience in the wild. > Cut all the unnecessary meetings and only allocate the minimum viable time to communicate. Most meetings are not about communication. They are usually prescriptive in form and dictatorial in nature. > Then everyone will be listening. Listening is a skill, one which is can be perfected if practiced. Ne…

You've missed the point and agreed with the GP. Too much time is spent attempting to communicate and as such, communication isn't actually happening. (i.e. we all spend way too much time in useless meetings where nothing happens and few people are any more informed than they were before)

Maybe this is just my interpretation but OP effectively argued "too many ineffective meetings, we should have less unnecessary meetings and a clearer, independent direction".

The commenter above argued that the problem was slightly different, it's not too many meetings for communication but too many that are not achieving effective communication. A meeting in itself does not create communication (of information and exchange of opinions etc.) and the commenter wanted to increase the number of meaningful meetings instead of/in addition to just cutting down meetings by numbers. The criticism of not enough time spent on communication is in the same vein, both agree on the issue of "too many unnecessary meetings".

Re: Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

#13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or maybe we're spending too much time on communicating. This is a phenomena I have yet to experience in the wild. > Cut all the unnecessary meetings and only allocate the minimum viable time to communicate. Most meetings are not about communication. They are usually prescriptive in form and dictatorial in nature. > Then everyone will be listening. Listening is a skill, one which is can be perfected if practiced. Ne…

You've missed the point and agreed with the GP. Too much time is spent attempting to communicate and as such, communication isn't actually happening. (i.e. we all spend way too much time in useless meetings where nothing happens and few people are any more informed than they were before)

I don't think "attempting to communicate" - or especially not "attempting to LISTEN" as in the title here - would be the stated reason for many meetings. "Pitching people on your shit" or "making sure shit gets done the way management wants it to" is much more accurate for most corporate dev and B2B/B2C sales/product meetings.

For the typical "agile" process for software:

- standup: this fits, attempting to communicate status and request help with blockers

- backlog grooming: attempting to figure out what to do with artifacts of generally-async communication (tickets from a backlog, either created by you in the past or by others). attempting to fit them into the process best. Communication is often seen as a necessary evil, and this process often goes faster with fewer people. if people bring up questions, there may be some attempts to communicate in explanations.

- sprint planning: work assignment and time management/estimations. similar to above, questions could spark attempts to communicate, but it's not the primary purpose.

- sprint retro: improve the team dynamics and the flow of the process. communication is usually assumed here, but in practice it's "people saying things, they get written down, then the next sprint happens same as the last." there often isn't effective communication to the people who could change things

I think if the goal of meetings was more specifically "we are going to communicate until our mental pictures are exactly the same" you'd end up with faster/better actual work from everyone on the team.

But in big orgs that's usually not even what's wanted. If the plan sucks, but it's a VP's pet project, it's not good for various whole teams in that org to all effectively communicate with each other to realize it sucks but not have the political skills or pull to change the VP's mind...

Re: Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

#14
>And if you're wondering why this happens, it's normally because:

1. people aren't talking to people

2. people aren't listening

I don't think this is right; I think the reason is - to use the metaphor from the cartoon image at the top - that what most of the people involved in the not talking and/or not listening were looking to get out of the situation in the first place was the ribbon cutting, not the road, and they got it.

Re: Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

#15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or maybe we're spending too much time on communicating. This is a phenomena I have yet to experience in the wild. > Cut all the unnecessary meetings and only allocate the minimum viable time to communicate. Most meetings are not about communication. They are usually prescriptive in form and dictatorial in nature. > Then everyone will be listening. Listening is a skill, one which is can be perfected if practiced. Ne…

You've missed the point and agreed with the GP. Too much time is spent attempting to communicate and as such, communication isn't actually happening. (i.e. we all spend way too much time in useless meetings where nothing happens and few people are any more informed than they were before)

> Too much time is spent attempting to communicate and as such, communication isn't actually happening.

This is where I think we have a different definition of communication.

> (i.e. we all spend way too much time in useless meetings where nothing happens and few people are any more informed than they were before)

Hence my clarification of:

  Most meetings are not about communication. They are usually 
  prescriptive in form and dictatorial in nature.
For example, if a project kick-off meeting consists of the highest ranking managers talking and everyone else having no contribution, listen to what they are saying; their "vision" is all that matters.

Another example is when product and/or engineer managers use "stand-ups" to ask each engineer the status of their deliverables. Listen to what they are saying; we micromanage and do not trust the team.

  Listening is a skill, one which is can be perfected if practiced.

Re: Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

#17
You assume what they say is the same as what they are thinking

The converse is also true. People saying something assume that people listening are understanding and thinking about the same thing. This is why it's important to write things down in details and as-unambiguous-as-you-can forms.

If you're in a meeting and someone puts up a slide deck with a 6 word bullet point that 'explains' what they want, that is a signal that literally no one understands the goal. If they put in a meeting without writing a one page doc about it, they don't understand it well enough to explain it.

And if your progression hangs off delivering that thing, you should by demanding that you get a clearer picture.

Re: Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

#18
Most of the problem is that talking to non technical people is frustrating, they often start like

1. Can u add X 2. Can u change Y

Without understanding cost of doing all this. Yes, i can do all and everything you ask for, but each action has a cost, which you fail to understand.

We cannot do everything if we need to launch a reliable product.

Re: Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

#19

Most of the problem is that talking to non technical people is frustrating, they often start like 1. Can u add X 2. Can u change Y Without understanding cost of doing all this. Yes, i can do all and everything you ask for, but each action has a cost, which you fail to understand. We cannot do everything if we need to launch a reliable product.

That cost has now gone way down, with AI doing that code thing. Love it or hate it, that is the reality.

Re: Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

#20

Most of the problem is that talking to non technical people is frustrating, they often start like 1. Can u add X 2. Can u change Y Without understanding cost of doing all this. Yes, i can do all and everything you ask for, but each action has a cost, which you fail to understand. We cannot do everything if we need to launch a reliable product.

That cost has now gone way down, with AI doing that code thing. Love it or hate it, that is the reality.

i've all AI subscription, cost is definitely down but risks aren't. You can still break things, you can make mistakes.
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