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College instructor turns to typewriters to curb AI-written work

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321–330 of 451 posts

Re: College instructor turns to typewriters to curb AI-written work

#321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So I can't help but wonder whether schools are going about this all wrong. Rather than banning the use of AI and trying to catch students who are cheating, why aren't they creating schoolwork that requires AI? Because using AI is the complete opposite of "I learned programming just to make tests easier". By learning how to program solver, you not only learned how to program but also learned the method well enough t…

>By pawning it off to AI to solve, you have learned nothing, not even how to prompt correctly as test questions are usually formulated well enough that AI doesn't need prompt massaging to get it. If you got AI to produce a working solution, you solved the problem. In the real world nobody who's paying you cares about the method as long as you deliver results. Students taught to solve easy problems by themselves will…

The part you're missing is that the evaluator already knows the answer. They're not looking that you can arrive at the correct answer, but that you know how to arrive at the correct answer. If "arriving at the correct answer" just means retrieving data from a Baysian database using a Markov chain you have only demonstrated you provide no value in the chain and should indeed get a mark of zero or get recycled.

Re: College instructor turns to typewriters to curb AI-written work

#322

When I did my Computer Science degree the vast majority of courses were 50% final, 30% midterm - even programming exams were hand written, proctored by TAs in class or in the gymnasium - assignments/labs/projects were a small part of your grade but if you didn’t do them the likelihood you’d pass the term exams was pretty darn low. We already had AI proof education.

In Spain, the whole university system was like that until like 15ish years ago. Exams were king, in most courses they were worth 80%-90%, and of course always in person. Then we did a university reform, partly with the excuse of aligning with the rest of the EU within the Bologna process (and I say "excuse" because that's what it was, because the politicians introduced some things with that pretense that weren't like…

I think the only defense of the new model is that it forces students to learn throughout the semester, rather than just before the exam. Which is easier and more effectively engages long term memory (like doing more rounds of spaced repetition).

I definitely could tell the difference, though most of the time I just studied full 4-7 days before the exam.

Re: College instructor turns to typewriters to curb AI-written work

#323
I can't compose at a typewriter the way I do with a word processor. I would have to write it out by hand first. If the typing is just transcription, I could just as well be copying from an AI doc.

If you're doing it in class anyway, and providing typewriters, you might as well provide a locked down Chromebook. Cheaper and better for composition.

Re: College instructor turns to typewriters to curb AI-written work

#324
post #262
post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is probably the fairest counter argument I’ve heard. One can hope that today’s AI will eventually be as cheap as a calculator, though.

AI in it‘s current phase, definitely. However, we‘ve been seeing the transformer architecture plateauing in the last couple of years. There are still improvements, but open source models are catching up. I feel like at this point it’s an inevitability that given enough time, capable models will be cheap enough for everyone.

If poor students have capable models but rich students have much better models that go the extra mile for a great mark and do everything in a single prompt, it would still be unfair.

For it to be fair, you would not only need good free models, but actual parity between free models and the highest subscription tier the big AI companies can offer. And I don't think that will happen in the short or mid term future.

Re: College instructor turns to typewriters to curb AI-written work

#325

I can't compose at a typewriter the way I do with a word processor. I would have to write it out by hand first. If the typing is just transcription, I could just as well be copying from an AI doc. If you're doing it in class anyway, and providing typewriters, you might as well provide a locked down Chromebook. Cheaper and better for composition.

I'm impressed how this comment covered all the bases. I would trust your code. haha

Re: College instructor turns to typewriters to curb AI-written work

#326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always preferred the "you get some grades along the way to gauge your progress but the lion's share of the weight went to the proctored exams" method unless the lion's share of the normal work was also proctored anyways (at which point it doesn't really matter how it's done). The reason was less for myself and more because anything group related suddenly shot up in quality when the other individual work classmates…

The things I don’t like about putting too much weight in the exams are: * It’s sort of unnecessarily high stakes for the students; a couple hours to determine your grade for many hours of studying. * It’s pretty artificial in general; in “real life” you have the ability to go around online and look for sources. This puts a pretty low ceiling on the level of complexity you can actually throw at them.

To me, exams are just like democracy. The worst form of evaluation, except for all others that have been tried.

Re: College instructor turns to typewriters to curb AI-written work

#327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Spain, the whole university system was like that until like 15ish years ago. Exams were king, in most courses they were worth 80%-90%, and of course always in person. Then we did a university reform, partly with the excuse of aligning with the rest of the EU within the Bologna process (and I say "excuse" because that's what it was, because the politicians introduced some things with that pretense that weren't like…

I think the only defense of the new model is that it forces students to learn throughout the semester, rather than just before the exam. Which is easier and more effectively engages long term memory (like doing more rounds of spaced repetition). I definitely could tell the difference, though most of the time I just studied full 4-7 days before the exam.

Yes, it does have some advantages. Apart from what you mention, another one is that it's not so consequential to e.g. sleep badly the night before an important exam. It's just that I find the disadvantages to be much greater than the advantages.

Re: College instructor turns to typewriters to curb AI-written work

#328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Spain, the whole university system was like that until like 15ish years ago. Exams were king, in most courses they were worth 80%-90%, and of course always in person. Then we did a university reform, partly with the excuse of aligning with the rest of the EU within the Bologna process (and I say "excuse" because that's what it was, because the politicians introduced some things with that pretense that weren't like…

I think the only defense of the new model is that it forces students to learn throughout the semester, rather than just before the exam. Which is easier and more effectively engages long term memory (like doing more rounds of spaced repetition). I definitely could tell the difference, though most of the time I just studied full 4-7 days before the exam.

In the UK they claimed that girls did worse on one-off exams and so the one-off exams structure favoured boys. When course had more graded coursework, girls did better.

So that was the justification used to switching to a less impactful final exam.

No idea how true that is.

We were also told learning a phonetic alphabet was better for young children learning to read than using the old ABC system.

As far as I have heard, that turned out to be based on one person's fantasy and zero evidence and has actually had negative impact on children learning to read.

Re: College instructor turns to typewriters to curb AI-written work

#329

I'm old enough to remember a similar controversy over whether to allow calculators in math classes. While most schools were banning them to force kids to learn how to do math without them, my school went the other way. They mandated that every student had one and then changed the assignments and tests to account for it. Gone were questions that had whole number answers that could be computed in our heads. Instead, an…

Rather than banning the use of AI and trying to catch students who are cheating, why aren't they creating schoolwork that requires AI? It's an interesting debate, but I see several reasons not to. 1. As a human you need to learn gradually, e.g. in CS you need to learn the basics of programming before going into more complex stuff. If you embrace AI from the beginning, it can let you skip the basics (why would you cod…

I agree with all these points. The algorithm to multiplying being done by the calculator, is not the same because you still have to learn why you are multiplying. If you rely on ai you may not know why the ai is giving the answer. All you’ve learned is copy paste. Figuring out how someone can use ai and give the wrong answer will solve the a huge problem. But it feels quite difficult at the time being. Ai is so general it’s hard to think of how to pose the question in a way that ai can’t answer. Maybe submitting prompts and judging prompts that bypass understanding. What if the test was more how to teach the ai? Meh ai in education is filled with gotchas.

Re: College instructor turns to typewriters to curb AI-written work

#330

I'm old enough to remember a similar controversy over whether to allow calculators in math classes. While most schools were banning them to force kids to learn how to do math without them, my school went the other way. They mandated that every student had one and then changed the assignments and tests to account for it. Gone were questions that had whole number answers that could be computed in our heads. Instead, an…

It's not a bad point, but the "calculator" metaphor is not the best one. First, schools don't create schoolwork. Teachers in different disciplines do. Second, calculators aren't in pervasive use across disciplines; AI products are. Third, schools provide these AI products for free - teachers don't. So a student in a psych methods class uses a free tier to create lit reviews, or whatever. The asymmetry there creates a problem for most assessments of skill, because students want expediency, and teachers assess skills and memory.

Finally, nobody seems to know what teachers are actually discussing. To your assertion:

>So I can't help but wonder whether schools are going about this all wrong. Rather than banning the use of AI and trying to catch students who are cheating, why aren't they creating schoolwork that requires AI?

Many teachers do create schoolwork that requires AI. Many teachers ban it. Everybody's trying to work out policy (to the detriment of other policy discussions, particularly the new ADA landscape). Many ED departments are captured by AI vendors - AI is a normal technological competency for ED majors at different levels. It's not that the discussion is not "are students going to work with AI?" The discussion is "how do we teach?" which is what the discussion always is.

But policy is a part of that. Admin will have guidance and policy statements, and each instructor will as well. Students, who get thrown off balance if they have two teachers with different nav bars in the CMS, want clarity of policy: can I use it? is a different question than should I use it? But "should I use it?" is the much more relevant question for instructors. The instructors passed through the 90s/00s/10s blissfully unaware of anything that was happening in these fields.

>These tools are not going to cease to exist.

Which tools, precisely? Because I'd assert your 200-dollar-or-whatever tier that runs out of tokens on Monday does not functionally exist for most students. I don't know what happens at MIT but Penn State satellite campus students aren't whipping up agentic solutions to "I have a summer online course with discussion boards." They're just plugging that shit into whatever chatbot they have on their phone. Honestly, most online courses aren't even worth that effort, but: different discussion.

The only reason there is pervasive student use is because someone made it free. The CoPilot window that comes with the basic tier of 365 and all the other in-app copilots are what my students have; the Google Docs stuff exists, and the Grammarly stuff exists, and the best way to "ban" it (which is just fine as an approach) is to make it even slightly more expensive. If someone does that, yeah, I think some of these products might cease to exist.

>I think we're doing them a disservice by trying to give them the same education that was given to those from previous generations

Students graduate into a world where all kinds of stuff is going on and all sorts of ideological forces shape what they encounter in schools. "AI" more a dominant element in that force than the calculator was because calculators didn't have hundreds of billions of dollars of investments, and I'm not sure I ever knew what the prevailing political project of Texas Instruments was. Maybe TI's CEO had a manifesto; tbf, I do remember IBM's corporate culture being strong enough to drive cultural change. But it would be naive to not recognize that these products are made by people antagonistic to the idea of education as a compulsory and public good.

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