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The RAM shortage could last years

theverge.com

31–40 of 536 posts

Re: The RAM shortage could last years

#31

I fear that the real reason we do have a shortage, I mean, the real reason for the demand, is AI companies scooping what they can so that their competitors, whether existing or incumbent, can’t get to it.

This was one of the theories behind the wafer buyout by OpenAI indeed. Pretty efficient way to make everyone panic and cut off of new hardware.

Re: The RAM shortage could last years

#32
post #3

I'm a bit surprised the article makes no mention of Google's TurboQuant[0] introduced 26 days prior. Given that TurboQuant results in a 6x reduction in memory usage for KV caches and up to 8x boost in speed, this optimization is already showing up in llama.cpp, enabling significantly bigger contexts without having to run a smaller model to fit it all in memory. Some people thought it might significantly improve the R…

BTW, a number of corrections. The TurboQuant paper was submitted to Arxiv back in April 2025: https://arxiv.org/abs/2504.19874

Current "TurboQuant" implementations are about 3.8X-4.9X on compression (w/ the higher end taking some significant hits of GSM8K performance) and with about 80-100% baseline speed (no improvement, regression): https://github.com/vllm-project/vllm/pull/38479

For those not paying attention, it's probably worth sending this and ongoing discussion for vLLM https://github.com/vllm-project/vllm/issues/38171 and llama.cpp through your summarizer of choice - TurboQuant is fine, but not a magic bullet. Personally, I've been experimenting with DMS and I think it has a lot more promise and can be stacked with various quantization schemes.

The biggest savings in kvcache though is in improved model architecture. Gemma 4's SWA/global hybrid saves up to 10X kvcache, MLA/DSA (the latter that helps solve global attention compute) does as well, and using linear, SSM layers saves even more.

None of these reduce memory demand (Jevon's paradox, etc), though. Looking at my coding tools, I'm using about 10-15B cached tokens/mo currently (was 5-8B a couple months ago) and while I think I'm probably above average on the curve, I don't consider myself doing anything especially crazy and this year, between mainstream developers, and more and more agents, I don't think there's really any limit to the number of tokens that people will want to consume.

Re: The RAM shortage could last years

#33

Ok so Samsung, SK Hynix and Micron do not have the capacity to meet demand. Also, what little capacity they do have they are allocating to HBM over DRAM. Based on my limited knowledge HBM can not be easily repurposed for consumer electronics. Translation: main street is cooked for the next 3-4 years. It doesn't stop there though. OpenAI is currently mired in a capital crunch. Their last round just about sucked all th…

The people who fucked over consumers are left holding the back that they sold us out over?

Oh no!

Re: The RAM shortage could last years

#34

Ok so Samsung, SK Hynix and Micron do not have the capacity to meet demand. Also, what little capacity they do have they are allocating to HBM over DRAM. Based on my limited knowledge HBM can not be easily repurposed for consumer electronics. Translation: main street is cooked for the next 3-4 years. It doesn't stop there though. OpenAI is currently mired in a capital crunch. Their last round just about sucked all th…

But wouldn’t you rather hbm prices come down first ? Memory makers will be fine. There is practically infinite demand. Unless you get china style rationing of compute per person world wide.

The real issue is everyone wanting to upgrade to hbm, ddr5, and nvme5 at the same time.

Re: The RAM shortage could last years

#35
post #16

It seems that RAM manufacturers are still reluctant to increase production. They know something that investors don't about long term RAM demands?

What’s the lose scenario for them? They’re basically a cartel, and you need ram irregardless. If they make less it’s still a cost:demand, just not the most optimal for them. They’ve done that math, and figure this is the best risk and reward for them. Your goodwill or opinion doesn’t matter to them, because you need them more than they need you.

Re: The RAM shortage could last years

#36
post #24

Ok so Samsung, SK Hynix and Micron do not have the capacity to meet demand. Also, what little capacity they do have they are allocating to HBM over DRAM. Based on my limited knowledge HBM can not be easily repurposed for consumer electronics. Translation: main street is cooked for the next 3-4 years. It doesn't stop there though. OpenAI is currently mired in a capital crunch. Their last round just about sucked all th…

I would expect that OpenAI gets as much money as they ask for for the next 10 years. There’s virtually infinite capital: if needed, more can be reallocated from the federal government (funded with debt), from public companies (funded with people’s retirement funds), from people’s pockets via wealth redistribution upwards, from offshore investment. They will be allowed to strangle any part of the supply chain they wan…

I think you're massively overestimating how much money is really accessible here. The parent comment's right that all of the easily available VC & private equity investment is basically used up. OpenAI was struggling to sell $600M of private equity, the big multi-billion dollar investment packages had lots of conditions and non-cash in it.

> more can be reallocated from the federal government (funded with debt)

While this is the most reliable funding, it's still not very accessible. OpenAI is a money pit, and their demands are growing quickly. The US government has started a bunch of very expensive spending. If OpenAI were to require yearly bundles of it's recent "$120B" deal, that's 6% of the US' discretionary budget. 12.5% of the non-military discretionary budget. (And the military is going to ask for a lot more money this year) Even the idea of just issuing more debt is dubious because they're going to want to do that to pay for the wars that are rapidly spiralling out of control.

None of this is saying that the US government can't or wouldn't pay for it, but it's non trivial and it's unclear how much Altman can threaten the US government "give me a trillion dollars or the economy explodes" without consequences.

Further deficit-spending isn't without it's risks for the US government either. Interests rates are already creeping up, and a careless explosion of deficit may well trigger a debt crisis.

> from public companies (funded with people’s retirement funds)

This would be at great cost. OpenAI would need to open up about it's financial performance to go public itself. With it's CFO being put on what is effectively Administrative Leave for pushing against going public, we can assume the financials are so catastrophic an IPO might bomb and take the company down with it. Nobody's going to be investing privately in a company that has no public takers.

Getting money through other companies is also running into limits. Big Tech has deep pockets but they've already started slowing down, switching to debt to finance AI investment, and similarly are increasingly pressured by their own shareholders to show results.

> from people’s pockets via wealth redistribution upwards

The practical mechanism of this is "AI companies raise their prices". That might also just crash the bubble if demand evaporates. For all the hype, the productivity benefit hasn't really shown up in economy-wide aggregates. The moment AI becomes "expensive", all the casual users will drop it. And the non-casual users are likely to follow. The idea of "AI tokens" as a job perk is cute, but exceedingly few are going to accept lower salary in order to use AI at their job.

There's simply not much money to take out of people's pockets these days, with how high cost of living has gotten.

> from offshore investment.

This is a pretty good source of money. The wealthy Arabian oil states have very deep slush funds, extensively investing in AI to get ties to US businesses and in the hope of diversifying their resource economies.

...

...

"Was". Was a good source of money.

Re: The RAM shortage could last years

#37

Ok so Samsung, SK Hynix and Micron do not have the capacity to meet demand. Also, what little capacity they do have they are allocating to HBM over DRAM. Based on my limited knowledge HBM can not be easily repurposed for consumer electronics. Translation: main street is cooked for the next 3-4 years. It doesn't stop there though. OpenAI is currently mired in a capital crunch. Their last round just about sucked all th…

To add a more local hurdle as well, the Dutch power grid is at capacity and its managing company is now telling companies that planned to build a datacenter that they can't be connected to the grid until 2030, even though said companies already paid for and got guarantees about that connection. That is, memory capacity is reserved for datacenters yet to be built, but this will do weird things if said datacenter const…

That guarantee is not as much of a guarantee as stated in the media. You get a guarantee it will be planned at a certain time (as in looked at), not that it will be build. The cost of doing business is taking risks and mitigating them. There is a reason the nuclear plant in Borsele was build: an aluminium smelter. Maybe you should arrange for something similar as a datacenter (no politician will fall on a sword for that but you can try). The (original) power draw is about the same 80-100MW.

Re: The RAM shortage could last years

#38
post #3

I'm a bit surprised the article makes no mention of Google's TurboQuant[0] introduced 26 days prior. Given that TurboQuant results in a 6x reduction in memory usage for KV caches and up to 8x boost in speed, this optimization is already showing up in llama.cpp, enabling significantly bigger contexts without having to run a smaller model to fit it all in memory. Some people thought it might significantly improve the R…

The work going into local models seems to be targeting lower RAM/VRAM which will definately help.

For example Gemma 4 32B, which you can run on an off-the-shelf laptop, is around the same or even higher intelligence level as the SOTA models from 2 years ago (e.g. gpt-4o). Probably by the time memory prices come down we will have something as smart as Opus 4.7 that can be run locally.

Bigger models of course have more embedded knowledge, but just knowing that they should make a tool call to do a web search can bypass a lot of that.

Re: The RAM shortage could last years

#40
post #16

It seems that RAM manufacturers are still reluctant to increase production. They know something that investors don't about long term RAM demands?

What’s the lose scenario for them? They’re basically a cartel, and you need ram irregardless. If they make less it’s still a cost:demand, just not the most optimal for them. They’ve done that math, and figure this is the best risk and reward for them. Your goodwill or opinion doesn’t matter to them, because you need them more than they need you.

> They’re basically a cartel,

The lawsuits in the past prove that statement to not be basically but actually.

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