Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Bring Back the 40-hour work week (March 2012)

salon.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

181–190 of 246 posts

Re: Bring Back the 40-hour work week (March 2012)

#181

Post by jonathanwallace »

kamaal wrote: post #145
larsberg wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if your company offers it, you should be careful about taking it. There are a few downsides: - Your advancement and promotion chances are basically zero in such a position. Not due to some conspiracy, but just because you're not around for half of the conversations people are having about the direction of the product/team. - If it isn't standard practice for the whole team, they all start to slightly hate you, n…

This is one of those annoying problems of working remotely. Unfortunately if you are working from home, you might be building mountains. But no one is seeing you do it, what that generally means is unless you announce explicitly what you are doing people think you are doing nothing. Contrary to whatever one thinks and the truth is. Perceptions matter a lot more than the reality.

Again, I have to disagree with you 100%. :)

I posit that "this" is one of those annoying problems of working. If you don't make sure you communicate your success, you won't be successful. People who don't celebrate, share and broadcast their success usually aren't successful. Even when they are in the office 100% of the time.

Re: Bring Back the 40-hour work week (March 2012)

#182

Post by Daniel_Newby »

tptacek wrote: post #162
rayiner wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could be a collective action problem. Everybody would be better off if everyone were limited to 40 hour weeks, but nobody wants to take the hit in perception that would result from adopting one on their own.

It's probably not the case that everyone would be better off if work weeks were limited to 40 hours because of the administrative costs of ensuring 40 hour weeks. A statutory 40 hour week works when everyone comes into work at the same time, or when people punch clocks. It's much harder for knowledge workers who drop in and out of "flow" at semi-random times.

> ... when people punch clocks.

If I ever run a technology company, the engineers will punch clocks. If they work too long, their pay will be docked.[1] The clock punch machine will lock out the IT systems for an employee who is clocked out.

1. I'm paying for the beginner's mind and flow. Somebody sabotage's that, they get invoiced the same as breaking the coffeemaker on purpose.

Re: Bring Back the 40-hour work week (March 2012)

#183

Post by jonathanwallace »

autarch wrote: post #173
drewblaisdell wrote: post #9

Perhaps this is a good thread to pose this question. I am a front-end engineer in my early twenties. Right now, 40+ hours a week is doable and I am paid well, but I don't need all of the money I'm earning. I would gladly take a 50% salary cut and work ~20 hours a week. The only problem with this is that I feel like this is a risky thing to bring up with an employer. Has anyone ever had any success getting a good part…

As part of my negotiations for my current job, I negotiated a 4-day (32 hour) work week. I take Fridays off and do my own projects and volunteer work. I've had a couple jobs where I've done 32 or 36 hour weeks in the past as well. But I also have a strong reputation in my field so I'm able to leverage a bit of personal branding ("I'll get more done in 32 hours than anyone else you can hire for 40.") That may be a tou…

I agree with your advice re: consulting 100%.

Re: Bring Back the 40-hour work week (March 2012)

#184

Post by jonathanwallace »

splicer wrote: post #176

I enjoy working 80 hours weeks once in while, when I get stoked on creating something new. What I can't stand is daily 10:30am daily scrums when I've been up until 4am coding. If you want to kill-off your employees' passion, I recommend agile methodology.

Sounds like a shitty version of agile. agile is people over processes. I'd investigate changing the process or changing jobs. Why do you have to be at the stand up?

Re: Bring Back the 40-hour work week (March 2012)

#185

Post by jonathanwallace »

mpeg wrote: post #151
latortuga wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's this almost cult-like obsession with measurement among the hacker crowd where everything must be measured and optimized. Unfortunately, people don't work this way. Telling people that they haven't measured up to some arbitrary standard is a significant demotivator. If you are measuring your workers on some chart, they'll begin either gaming the chart or comparing against each other, neither of which will moti…

A lack of measurement is not any better either, why do a better job or go the extra mile for this customer if it's not going to impact you in any way?

Its a somewhat foreign concept called intrinsic motivation that involves synergistic goals and happy employees. :P

Re: Bring Back the 40-hour work week (March 2012)

#186

Post by logn »

koof wrote: post #110

As a soon to be first time job hunter (beyond internships): how do I find jobs that aren't 50 hr+/wk death marches? Should I consider government? I say this because the internships I've already done I've been encouraged to work weekends.

In the course of a day of interviews with a company I always try to ask one person how many hours they work. Also, look for hourly jobs. That's the surest way to not overwork. Government would be good. And probably most mega corp jobs. Watch out for any job requiring on-call rotation.

Re: Bring Back the 40-hour work week (March 2012)

#187

Post by jonathanwallace »

stephen_g wrote: post #152

Interestingly enough, in Australia the standard full-time work week was 40 hours, but Fair Work Australia recently changed it so the maximum an employer can ask a full-time employee to work in a week is 38 hours. Some people at the company I work at do work quite a bit more, but this is actually discouraged by the company (it counts as time in-leiu so they can take that time off later). This seems a massive contrast…

Some places it does, some places it doesn't. Much depends upon the local labor market, industry, etc.

"It depends."

Re: Bring Back the 40-hour work week (March 2012)

#189

Post by kamaal »

jonathanwallace wrote: post #180
kamaal wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its true that if you make it rain by working 20 hours, you get to be the superstar of the team. But that's not possible, at least not in 90% of the scenarios. Office as we know it, is more than a workplace for an individual. Its a place where people meet together to collaborate with each other. Its also a social network where people eat lunch, drink coffee and talk about life, and such stuff together. If you are not…

I respectfully submit that you are 100% wrong. At least, you're wrong in stating your opinion so forcefully in the second two paragraphs after a (to me) flippant caveat in the first. The important question isn't whether there're 10% scenarios where company cultures are actually meritocratic, but how much the proportion changes over time. I'll submit my anecdotal evidence that it is growing. And my career continues to…

>>I work remote most of the time and so do I good portion of my colleagues.

That is the reason why working remote is helping you. Since most of your colleagues are working remotely too.

In Rome, behave like a Roman.

Re: Bring Back the 40-hour work week (March 2012)

#190

Post by jonathanwallace »

Falling3 wrote: post #46
edj wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Setting aside whether 60-80 hours per week is sustainable (and I think it's not for most pople, except perhaps for 20-somethings and people with hypomania), the research this article references says that there isn't a 1-to-1 correlation between hours and output. That's the whole point. "... increasing a team’s hours in the office by 50 percent (from 40 to 60 hours) does not result in 50 percent more output (as Henry…

Not only does overtime not give you a linear increase in performance, but in my personal experience overtime it decreases overall performance. I work at a small programming company where gratuitous overtime is the norm as a project closes. By the time things calm down again, we're so stressed out that our productivity probably falls by 50% or more for weeks to come. And the cumulative effect after years of this is ev…

Please tell me you're arguing to convince them of the error of their ways or looking for a new job if you've already failed to convince them?
Post reply on HN