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Scientists discover “cleaner ants” that groom giant ants in Arizona desert

sciencedaily.com

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Re: Scientists discover “cleaner ants” that groom giant ants in Arizona desert

#11

Post by lisper »

culi wrote: post #7
lisper wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cooperation and symbiosis are very general survival strategies. They apear at all levels of the biological abstraction hierarchy, all the way down to mitochondria, which are almost certainly descended from what was once an independent organism. In fact, even a genome itself can be seen as a collection of mutually cooperating replicators. No intelligence is required for cooperation to evolve. It's a straightforward co…

Yes! Cooperation seems to be just as fundamental, if not more, than competition. We wouldn't have gotten volcanic islands to break down into soil if it weren't for the partnership that is lichen. We wouldn't be able to digest a tenth of what we're able to eat if it weren't for our gut bacteria. We wouldn't have trees if it weren't for mycorrhizal fungi which over 90% of plants depend on. There's a famous paper/framew…

> Cooperation seems to be just as fundamental, if not more, than competition

Both are fundamental. You can't survive without cooperating, but you also can't survive if you try to cooperate with the entire biosphere because ultimately there is competition for scarce resources. If you don't assert yourself to claim your share of those, something else will.

Re: Scientists discover “cleaner ants” that groom giant ants in Arizona desert

#13

Post by culi »

lisper wrote: post #11
culi wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes! Cooperation seems to be just as fundamental, if not more, than competition. We wouldn't have gotten volcanic islands to break down into soil if it weren't for the partnership that is lichen. We wouldn't be able to digest a tenth of what we're able to eat if it weren't for our gut bacteria. We wouldn't have trees if it weren't for mycorrhizal fungi which over 90% of plants depend on. There's a famous paper/framew…

> Cooperation seems to be just as fundamental, if not more, than competition Both are fundamental. You can't survive without cooperating, but you also can't survive if you try to cooperate with the entire biosphere because ultimately there is competition for scarce resources. If you don't assert yourself to claim your share of those, something else will.

Yes, but does your kidney compete with your lung?

I would highly recommend you read through the paper. Alongside these "advanced in individuality" comes reduced (internal) competition.

I agree that both are important but competition only seems to be important at the very edges of what selection is acting upon while cooperation is truly "fundamental"

Re: Scientists discover “cleaner ants” that groom giant ants in Arizona desert

#14

Post by buildbot »

encrux wrote: post #12
awakeasleep wrote: post #8

why haven't any animals adapted to this role for humans!

In a Sense, cats did actually. Not through direct contact, but by getting rid of mice and rats that infiltrate food storage.

Cat’s will also literally try to clean you as well!

Re: Scientists discover “cleaner ants” that groom giant ants in Arizona desert

#15

Post by wizardforhire »

awakeasleep wrote: post #8

why haven't any animals adapted to this role for humans!

Lol!

Because there hasn’t been enough time and the ecological niche is non existent… ?

However… upon further inspection, one could argue that the micro biome is full of beneficial micro organisms that have evolved to fill this niche…

[1] Staphylococcus epidermidis

This is one of the most abundant and beneficial bacteria on human skin. It produces antimicrobial peptides and metabolites that inhibit the growth of pathogenic bacteria.

[2] Cutibacterium acnes

Despite its association with acne, this bacterium actually plays an important role in skin health by producing propionic acid, which helps maintain skin pH and prevents overgrowth of harmful organisms.

[3] Corynebacterium species

Various corynebacteria colonize the skin and produce lipases and other enzymes that help break down sebum (skin oils) and maintain healthy skin conditions.

[4] Malassezia species

These yeasts are abundant on skin and help regulate the skin microbiome, though they can sometimes cause issues in excess.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staphylococcus_epidermidis

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutibacterium_acnes

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corynebacterium

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malassezia

Re: Scientists discover “cleaner ants” that groom giant ants in Arizona desert

#16

Post by [deleted] »

lisper wrote: post #9
LeCompteSftware wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a frustrating response to my comment. I am aware that symbiosis is universal. That's not what I'm talking about. I am talking about the specific and highly unusual behavior of crawling inside of a much larger animal's mouth and trusting it not to eat you. Cleaner fish are highly intelligent[1] and it appears that this intelligence is necessary for their niche: - picking a good location for a cleaning station…

> I am talking about the specific and highly unusual behavior of crawling inside of a much larger animal's mouth and trusting it not to eat you. OK. > Cleaner fish are highly intelligent[1] Yes. > and it appears that this intelligence is necessary Manifestly not, at least not in general. > for their niche: That is an open question. Just because an unintelligent cleaner fish hasn't evolved doesn't mean it couldn't.

[deleted]

Re: Scientists discover “cleaner ants” that groom giant ants in Arizona desert

#17

Post by lisper »

culi wrote: post #13
lisper wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cooperation seems to be just as fundamental, if not more, than competition Both are fundamental. You can't survive without cooperating, but you also can't survive if you try to cooperate with the entire biosphere because ultimately there is competition for scarce resources. If you don't assert yourself to claim your share of those, something else will.

Yes, but does your kidney compete with your lung? I would highly recommend you read through the paper. Alongside these "advanced in individuality" comes reduced (internal) competition. I agree that both are important but competition only seems to be important at the very edges of what selection is acting upon while cooperation is truly "fundamental"

> does your kidney compete with your lung?

I don't know of any cases of direct kidney v lung competition, but competition among body parts is common. Sometime that competition is adaptive, sometimes not. Examples of adaptive competition are things like when under extreme circumstances (particularly cold or hunger) your body will sacrifice parts of itself to keep other parts going. Examples of non-adaptive competition are things like autoimmune diseases. Also, sometimes individual cells go rogue and stop cooperating. That's called cancer.

> competition only seems to be important at the very edges of what selection is acting upon

I guess that depends on what you consider "the edges". In the case of humans, selection produces intuitions about "us vs them". Those intuitions range from very closely drawn boundaries ("us" includes only my immediate family or clan) to very broadly drawn boundaries ("us" is my entire species, or my entire phylum, or all living things). In between are things like "us" is all members of my species with my skin color. But the extremes of this range are non-adaptive. Draw the boundaries too narrowly and you end up without enough genetic diversity in your in-group to drive out maladaptive mutations. Draw them too broadly and you end up defenseless against parasites and with nothing to eat.

Re: Scientists discover “cleaner ants” that groom giant ants in Arizona desert

#19

Post by culi »

lisper wrote: post #17
culi wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but does your kidney compete with your lung? I would highly recommend you read through the paper. Alongside these "advanced in individuality" comes reduced (internal) competition. I agree that both are important but competition only seems to be important at the very edges of what selection is acting upon while cooperation is truly "fundamental"

> does your kidney compete with your lung? I don't know of any cases of direct kidney v lung competition, but competition among body parts is common. Sometime that competition is adaptive, sometimes not. Examples of adaptive competition are things like when under extreme circumstances (particularly cold or hunger) your body will sacrifice parts of itself to keep other parts going. Examples of non-adaptive competition…

That's exactly my point. Competition at the fundamentals is called cancer. It's the exception, not the norm.

Your body prioritizing which parts to keep alive for the survival of the whole ship is not an example of competition. Competition would be if a body part actively attacked another body part. In this case, survival of the entire body will eventually benefit all body parts

> I guess that depends on what you consider "the edges"

The "edges" as thoroughly defined in the paper I linked. Major evolutionary transitions in individuality (METI). METI is a widely accepted framework in biology

Re: Scientists discover “cleaner ants” that groom giant ants in Arizona desert

#20

Post by Joel_Mckay »

awakeasleep wrote: post #8

why haven't any animals adapted to this role for humans!

There are many Garra rufa subspecies that were the source of compounds used in treating modern autoimmune and skin disorders.

The fishes histories go back thousands of years. As a species it is super interesting... some evolved in hot-spring conditions that would simply cook most other animals. =3

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_garra

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLWkojAnyH0

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