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Why Japan has such good railways

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Re: Why Japan has such good railways

#211

Post by quadrifoliate »

floatrock wrote: post #136
SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not at all dishonest to talk about their privatization. It’s dishonest to hand wave it away while pretending that because there are government controls for construction and financing that it would go even better if it was more government or “more hybridized”. With no source, just opinion. No one that has ever had to switch blue to red to green in toyko just cash, buying a new ticket at each stop only to go a co…

You misunderstand me... I'm not saying the privatization is a bad thing, handwaving it away, or saying lets throw government at it. I'm merely pointing out that in a 4,000 word essay trying to explain all the factors that let Japan have such a good railway system, there's a huge amount of emphasis on the privatization part, and zero mention of all the public sector subsidies that enable the entire system. It's fine t…

Did you miss this paragraph? They do talk about the subsidies from the national and prefectural governments.

> Carefully designed public subsidies also play a useful role. Although Japanese railways do not receive subsidies for day-to-day operations, they do receive government loans and grants for capital investments. These are typically tied to public priorities, such as disability access or earthquake-proofing, or to projects that have large spillovers that the railway company would be unable to internalize, like removing level crossings, or elevating at-grade railways or trams in order to reduce road congestion and accident risk. Generally, the local prefectural government will match the contribution of the national government. Larger new build projects are subject to lease back or debt-payment conditions that fare revenue is expected to pay back.

Unless this was added after the fact, I think this is mostly an issue of careful reading. To me, the article absolutely says that it's a hybridized system like you mention.

Re: Why Japan has such good railways

#212

Post by kdheiwns »

panick21_ wrote: post #112
bluefirebrand wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People can live without a high speed train. They cannot live without a clean water supply Seems to me that the priorities are correct

Ok but here is the thing, Japan had great civil engineering for 100 years, they have made lots and lots and lots of tunnels. Japan overall has fantastic water quality and is globally known for clean and safe bathrooms. So the argument that 'new train X will destroy the water supply' really needs to be based on a whole stack of good evidence.

Japan has some of the most horrific pollution disasters of the 20th century and had tremendously polluted water. The clean Japan thing is only true because Japan got very serious about safety after companies were ignoring issues and polluting water.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Big_Pollution_Diseases_of...

And I don't even get the clean bathrooms connection. Sounds like a random TikTok meme with zero relevance. Half the bathrooms don't even have soap.

Re: Why Japan has such good railways

#213

Post by soruly »

successful train lines in Japan are all built between CBD and some spots / attractions. Odakyu: odawara / hakone, Seibu: chichibu, keiou: Takao, toukyuu: Nikko / kinugawa, nankai: Takao.

Tourists spots are usually in the mountains and the CBD is near the sea. And residential area is developed between them along the lines so the trains carry bidirectional passengers to work or relax on the same line, higher utilization keeps ticket fare low.

Re: Why Japan has such good railways

#214

Post by OneDeuxTriSeiGo »

antonymoose wrote: post #161
Someone1234 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American's culture of me, me, me, now, now, now is why. If it doesn't benefit the individual almost immediately they're strongly opposed. They want the benefits of strong infrastructure but let someone else build it without inconveniencing ME or costing ME a dime. It is a culture that teaches greed is good and society should be built around all gain no cost.

As an American, I always hear all these weird stories about New York and its subway system. All the random busker type nonsense, the petty crime and the “mugger wallet” type jokes. Not to mention the major crimes that make the news. I’d rather not deal with it? Yes I know roads are dangerous. I’d still rather not deal with the expected culturally imposed insanity that the Japanese curiously seem to lack.

> All the random busker type nonsense, the petty crime and the “mugger wallet” type jokes.

Most of this is stories. Yeah there are buskers but tbh I like buskers. Music in the public square is a plus not a minus even if it's not my personal preference of music.

Subway crime rates are around 2-4 incidents per million rides. There was a spike during covid and it started to rapidly trend down afterwards. That corresponds with economic desperation during that period pretty cleanly.

But that 2-4 incidents per million rides is roughly comparable to the crime rates at gas stations, etc. The difference is that density is lower so you just see it less often. It happens just about as frequently but you are less likely to witness it because you are less likely to be present when it happens to somebody else at a gas station.

> I’d still rather not deal with the expected culturally imposed insanity that the Japanese curiously seem to lack.

Trust me Japan has just as much of an issue with crime on rail. Arguably they have higher rates but the Japanese police often just don't consider sexual harassment or sexual assault a serious crime and would rather brush it under the rug or otherwise deal with it outside the criminal system to avoid harming the abuser. (ex: an incident that I'm familiar with: "oh we gave the guy who assaulted you on the train your address so they could mail you a hand written apology note instead of charging them with assault")

And the "wacky in your face" crime (intoxicated, mental illness, etc) is still very much an issue in Japan but it's cracked down on by police in places that tourists frequently visit during the day and otherwise everyone just expects it so people who live there don't really mention it to tourists.

I mean hell look at Shibuya Meltdown for some of the more mild "funny" examples.

The only real difference between the NYC metro and the Japanese metro is that it's louder because there's not a social norm to limit talking on the train (until people are drunk ofc). Otherwise it's all the same shit and you see it all when you start commuting.

Re: Why Japan has such good railways

#215

Post by [deleted] »

mmooss wrote: post #172
antonymoose wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American, I always hear all these weird stories about New York and its subway system. All the random busker type nonsense, the petty crime and the “mugger wallet” type jokes. Not to mention the major crimes that make the news. I’d rather not deal with it? Yes I know roads are dangerous. I’d still rather not deal with the expected culturally imposed insanity that the Japanese curiously seem to lack.

> I always hear all these weird stories The weird stories, about anything, are nonsense; sensationalized to either be emotoinally compelling or even active disinformation to serve some political end (especially about American cities, especially about NYC.) It's just induced fear. Just go to NY and ride the subway. Millions do all the time without any problems, without a second thought. It's really no problem and amaz…

[deleted]

Re: Why Japan has such good railways

#216

Post by xyzelement »

kjkjadksj wrote: post #194
xyzelement wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is not a smart read of the situation. The US has built a tremendous amount of rail and other transit (eg NYC subway) back when it was an even more individualistic society than today. In fact they country was clearly able to come together for the public good many times throughout their history. You could consider other causes.

Most all of that old rail was done by private companies seeking to make a profit. Just like Japan. Look at nyc subway building rates after it was publicly owned. Almost zero expansion. Contractions even.

I agree w that and disagree what the person's I replied to dumb premise.

Re: Why Japan has such good railways

#217

Post by andrewl »

leonidasrup wrote: post #170
stephen_g wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Geography like that does help a lot, it’s part of the reason it’s so easy to do really good high-speed rail in Italy over somewhere like Germany that is way more spread out. But it’s only half the picture, you also need the political will to get it built!

The population density of Italy 201/km2 is lower then population density of Germany 241/km2, so from point of view of density, Germany should have more high-speed rail than Italy. But because cars are major German export driver and car manufacuring is major employment in Germany, anything competing with cars has not much political support. https://www.dw.com/en/germany-merz-pledges-to-resist-2035-eu... https://en.wik…

The population density of Italy 201/km2 is lower then population density of Germany 241/km2, so from point of view of density, Germany should have more high-speed rail than Italy.

That would be if kilometers of rail tracks scaled linearly with population density per unit area. My guess (based on no research at all) is it’s more that there’s a population density tipping point, and after reaching it rail development dramatically increases. I do also think you’re right about the influence of the German car industry.

Re: Why Japan has such good railways

#218

Post by thaumasiotes »

mjamesaustin wrote: post #210
thaumasiotes wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Before someone buys a car, they must prove that they have a reserved night-time space on private land, either owned or leased. > This is got to be a huge factor. If the USA implemented that exact rule, it would change almost nothing. People already need nighttime parking for non-legal reasons.

You are dramatically misinformed. Where I live in Los Angeles, a very large number of people park their cars primarily or exclusively on the street. Such a change would have a significant impact.

> Where I live in Los Angeles, a very large number of people park their cars primarily or exclusively on the street.

> Such a change would have a significant impact.

What would that impact be? Do you see, or experience, a lot of contention for nighttime parking?

There's plenty of contention for street parking in nonresidential areas. But a nighttime parking certificate doesn't do anything about that. Nighttime parking is done in residential areas.

Re: Why Japan has such good railways

#219

Post by ttul »

nottorp wrote: post #104
savanaly wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>how ingenious Japan’s system of zoning is I'm only barely familiar with it so I ask this in good faith: is it really ingenious or is it just more permissive? My bias/priors are that the simpler and truer statement is: it can't be overstated how beneficial more permissive zoning laws are to a society.

From what I remember, Japanese zoning allows small shops (there's a size limit) in any residential zone. That means no car trips when you run out of bread or milk. Smartest property of that zoning system IMO.

You haven’t lived until you have experienced the Japanese Kombini (convenience store).
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