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All 12 moonwalkers had "lunar hay fever" from dust smelling like gunpowder (2018)

esa.int

221–230 of 288 posts

Re: All 12 moonwalkers had "lunar hay fever" from dust smelling like gunpowder (2018)

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the thinking of someone on the timescales of a single life. If humanity persists another 1000 years on our current trajectory (US/world politics not withstanding), I think nothing is really a fantasy. Rather, it's all possible but maybe just not in our own lifetimes. But it is also terribly difficult for us to plan for tomorrow, let alone for a future where our descendants are at the helm.

I agree, it’s just a failure of imagination. Some folks correctly foresee not being able to continue what we’re doing now in the exact same way in some new context and conclude everything is impossible. Life isn’t this fickle, it’s adapted before and will adapt again. This is why great science fiction is so valuable, as some people are better at imagining new ways of being more than others, and can show the rest of u…

The counterargument is a simple opportunity cost calculation:

There will never, ever, ever[1] be a scenario where if you weighed up the options of "expand into some less habitable area of the Earth" versus "expand to Mars", the latter is the better option either 1) financially, or b) quality of life.

Nobody[2] ever picks the dramatically more expensive and dramatically worse option!

Also, people that are desperate enough to even consider living in the least desirable -- but still just barely habitable -- parts of planet Earth are essentially by definition too poor to afford interplanetary travel.

And no, no amount future sci-fi technology can possibly overcome the simple energy costs of this! If someone can afford the hugely energy intensive interplanetary travel, and the up-front investment required to survive incredibly harsh environments, then by definition they could more productively invest that here on Earth! It's the cheaper and better option in every possible way, and always will be.

This will remain true even if it's standing room only on the entire planetary surface -- it'll be cheaper to build levels upwards while digging downwards.

Maybe our atmosphere will become horrifically polluted? Sure, okay, air filters are faaar cheaper than a full vacuum-capable space suit!

Etc, etc, etc...

[1] Okay, fine, maybe in a million years. Whatever ends up preferring Mars at that point will no longer be "human" by any sane classification.

[2] For some values of nobody. There are morons that buy overpriced branded handbags made of literal trash. I doubt idiots like that will make for a successful, self-sustaining colony.

Re: All 12 moonwalkers had "lunar hay fever" from dust smelling like gunpowder (2018)

#222
post #91
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think any of you should want to be smelling Ozone. Diatomic oxygen is already a highly reactive fuel that is killing us and giving us cancer every single day. The ozone species is even more oxidative. Oxygen is how we move about the energy gradient, but it's also killing us. Ozone is worse. "Air purifiers" with ionization are probably not worth the squeeze.

Aside from "killing us and giving us cancer every single day", isn't "diatomic oxygen" the stuff we breathe every single minute and need to survive? I'm not normally one to miss the sarcastic or satirical posts, but this one seems oddly earnest.

The other posters here are right. I just wanted to point out the odd beauty in the fact that the fuel that makes our biology possible is also one of the things that is killing us. If you get a chance, read up a little bit on redox reactions and oxidative stress and take a moment to appreciate that.

We harness the energy of oxygen. It's the fuel that powers us. But it's also so reactive that it's constantly damaging our DNA and intracellular components. Over time it ages us, causes cancer (daily - our biology fights back!), and will ultimately be part of what wears us down and kills us.

Look at oxygen as a very reactive and energy abundant fuel. And then consider its abundance in our atmosphere. And then how it powers human locomotion, human biochemistry. And how it creates free radicals and chain reactions that strip our DNA and mutate base pairs. And all the tens of thousands - no, countless more - interactions and reactions it's having all throughout our bodies at all times. And how our biology evolved compensation measures to keep those deleterious effects at bay for as long as possible - as long as necessary - to enable reproduction.

Our biology is utterly awe-inspiring when you think about it. An incredible machine molded by our gravity well and abundantly available energy. Not just fighting against entropy, but actively sailing its turbulent energy gradients.

Re: All 12 moonwalkers had "lunar hay fever" from dust smelling like gunpowder (2018)

#223
post #11

That’s such a weirdly specific detail but also kinda fascinating. Imagine going to the Moon and the first thing you notice is “huh… smells like gunpowder.

The weird part may be that everyone seems to know what gunpowder smells like...

Re: All 12 moonwalkers had "lunar hay fever" from dust smelling like gunpowder (2018)

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The moon has gravity. The blobs wouldn't float.

Pretty sure it was a joke.

Nobody would joke about something as serious as moon fires dude, c'mon

Re: All 12 moonwalkers had "lunar hay fever" from dust smelling like gunpowder (2018)

#225
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the ground on mars is literally toxic. Makes the concept of a Martian colony less appealing. Almost equal to a floating station on Venus. At least there you’d have the correct pressure. I seem to recall that the temperature on Venus at an altitude of one atmospheric pressure is manageable. It’s just also acidic. Possibility easier to deal with than perchlorates.

Without massive terraforming all of Mars is very hostile. But having solid ground is still nice. A workable compromise is making big habitats in a dome, that gives sunlight, but shields from radiation. And the ground needs to be processed obviously. The advantage of Venus to me is is gravity.

You may enjoy this piece, Domes are over-rated:

https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2019/11/28/domes-are-very...

Re: All 12 moonwalkers had "lunar hay fever" from dust smelling like gunpowder (2018)

#226
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doing something like that at planetary scale is science fiction anyway even if we did have the tech to do it.

Talking to computers and expecting computers to answer coherent English was science fiction 4 years ago. Don’t lose faith

It's just that terraforming will require a lot of materials that will have to be brought over from Earth. And every tonne of materials to Mars requires many tonnes of fuel to launch from Earth.

I don't think it is possible to ever transport enough to make this happen.

Re: All 12 moonwalkers had "lunar hay fever" from dust smelling like gunpowder (2018)

#227
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Challenger was destroyed on launch, not reentry.

Yeah it was Columbia that was destroyed on reentry (17 years later).

Which incidentally is the shuttle that brought back LDEF.

Re: All 12 moonwalkers had "lunar hay fever" from dust smelling like gunpowder (2018)

#229

I recall an article from a long time ago that basically said “astronauts report” the moon smells like spent gunpowder and outer space smell like… I think it was ozone. What they were actually reporting was the smell of the airlocks after they returned from their excursions. The moon has no atmosphere, so it has been accumulating dust from billions of years of asteroid impacts that have never come in contact with oxyg…

Outer space smells like burnt flesh is what I've heard. Space is full of toxic polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons which are created in novae and are everywhere in outer space in small amounts. They're the same chemicals that generate when organic compounds and fossil fuels are burnt.

Makes me wonder even more why some people really want to go and live there.

Re: All 12 moonwalkers had "lunar hay fever" from dust smelling like gunpowder (2018)

#230

I recall an article from a long time ago that basically said “astronauts report” the moon smells like spent gunpowder and outer space smell like… I think it was ozone. What they were actually reporting was the smell of the airlocks after they returned from their excursions. The moon has no atmosphere, so it has been accumulating dust from billions of years of asteroid impacts that have never come in contact with oxyg…

Oxygen if the third most abundant element in the universe.[1]

The Moon minerals contain plenty of it:

The finer regolith, the lunar soil of silicon dioxide glass.[2]

Minerals forming the lunar crust are made up of oxygen, silicon, magnesium, iron, calcium, and aluminum, along with small amounts of titanium, uranium, thorium, potassium, and hydrogen.[3]

I figure you mean free oxygen or diatomic oxygen O₂, but that stuff is rare in the universe, as it’s quite reactive, and largely irrelevant for asteroid impact chemistry extreme heat and pressure, plenty of oxygen available in the rocks smashing together.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon

3. https://science.nasa.gov/moon/composition/

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