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The future of everything is lies, I guess: Where do we go from here?

aphyr.com

781–790 of 830 posts

Re: The future of everything is lies, I guess: Where do we go from here?

#781

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their negative effects are much more vast, subtle, and cultural. You could say many of the broad and widespread mental issues we have in the US is the result of automobiles leading to suburbanization and thus isolation of people. It has created an expensive barrier of entry for existing in society and added a ton of friction to doing anything and everything, especially with people. That's not even getting into the cl…

automobiles -> suburbanization -> isolation -> mental health crisis seems like a fairly easy hypothesis to test since there are still millions of people in america living densely and carless in places like nyc and you could demonstrate that they have a statistically significant gap in mental illnesses. so easy to test that i bet several people already have and you could just check.

you have to deal with selection bias - those are presumably very different groups of people selecting into the type of environment they favor at some level, albeit aconstrained by affordability

Re: The future of everything is lies, I guess: Where do we go from here?

#782
post #746

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't see why you think trades are insulated; as someone who dabbles in plumbing, plastering and electrical wiring. A significant amount of demand for both is due to knowledge barriers - and the fact that you need to certify work.

LLMs aren't going to remove the "moat" that comes from owning specialized tools (sewer and drain cleaning machines, pro-quality welders, etc), and having a procurement and service infrastructure. Individual property owners who want to dabble already have that option from the myriad YouTube videos available to them (and arguably they're more trustworthy than LLM slop), just as they've had with books and other media in…

I'm not sure where you're based, but having friends who are tradies most of the procurement and service infrastructure isn't owned by them at all.

Putting in a new kitchen or rewiring a house isn't beyond the physical abilities of most people and their customers tend to be the same middle class knowledge workers which AI is expecting to cannibalize.

As to your point about the knowledge being freely available; just as it's easier to ask an LLM about software questions, the same is true for other fields. It might not be accurate, but it doesn't really need to be - it just needs to lower the barrier for people to try.

Basically what I'm saying is that I absolutely expect secondary side effects for the trades if it has a big impact on knowledge workers as well.

Re: The future of everything is lies, I guess: Where do we go from here?

#783

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their negative effects are much more vast, subtle, and cultural. You could say many of the broad and widespread mental issues we have in the US is the result of automobiles leading to suburbanization and thus isolation of people. It has created an expensive barrier of entry for existing in society and added a ton of friction to doing anything and everything, especially with people. That's not even getting into the cl…

My parents made a home in a nice suburban neighborhood, where today some good restaurants and a coffeehouse are in walking distance, and grocery shopping is a short car ride. Yet we grew up still rather attached to neighborhoods further away, where our schools and grandparents lived. There was no possibility of bicycles or “kid power” to reach there; Mom and Dad always, always drove us everywhere! Today I find myself…

I get to feeling this way when I look at pictures of neighborhoods that have been leveled for the car and what it's done to the civic fabric - e.g. historic black neighborhoods in Oakland, eminent domain in SF, etc. It hurts thinking about what could have been every time you hear of a road death or have a harrowing experience on foot/bike.

Re: The future of everything is lies, I guess: Where do we go from here?

#784
post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a liquidity problem. Retail absolutely can drop any given bank into a liquidity crunch by pulling out too many funds, too quickly. It doesn't even need to put a given bank at risk of insolvency, if the situation is read as widespread and/or growing, because as the event expands, so does the likelihood that someone else is mismanaging their books. Someone who is hooked into another institution, and another, and a…

Nope, you're still missing the point. SVB had a solvency problem, not just a liquidity problem. And some silly consumer protest withdrawals will never be able to cause a liquidity problem for any bank that matters.

Their liquidity problem WAS their solvency problem. The bank run is what did them in. Hence, this entire conversation

Read the previous comment again and at least attempt to understand it, please. (I don't expect you to, because you're approaching this conversation as someone who seems to know that I'm right, but who is obliged to deny with trivializing language like "silly", but I do have to at least ask. Anyone reading it will hopefully understand that your patronizing tone is masking anxiety.)

Re: The future of everything is lies, I guess: Where do we go from here?

#785
post #767

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> His lack of personal experience with LLMs... You missed the part where he is consistently unimpressed by the failure of LLMs to do the task he hands to them, it seems. Go re-read Section 1.5 "Models are Idiots". Make sure to read the footnotes. They're sure to address most of the counterarguments you might make. > Is that "breathless boosterism?" How you phrased it? Yes. It ignores the "infinite nuances involved" s…

> You missed the part where he is consistently unimpressed by the failure of LLMs to do the task he hands to them... Not really, those are exactly the things said by people who dabble with LLMs a little and turn to "breathless naysaying" without any effort to really figure out this new technology. I mean, the series literally ends with "maybe I'll try to code with it." > Yes. It ignores the "infinite nuances involved…

> Not really, those are exactly the things said by people who dabble with LLMs a little...

From the footnote in section 1.5:

  The examples I give in this essay are mainly from major commercial models (e.g. ChatGPT GPT-5.4, Gemini 3.1 Pro, or Claude Opus 4.6) in the last three months; several are from late March. Several of them come from experienced software engineers who use LLMs professionally in their work. Modern ML models are astonishingly capable, and they are also blithering idiots. This should not be even slightly controversial.
I wonder just how Scottish the Scotsman has to be before you'll let him order a drink.

> And in my experience it takes a surprising amount of time and practice to learn how to leverage AI effectively.

Let's ignore -for a minute- the fact that people who actually use these things as part of their dayjobs were consulted, which moots this complaint.

Every six-ish months we hear "Wow. All the past commentary on LLMs is completely invalid. These new models aren't just a step change — they're a whole new way of working.".

If we consider only that datapoint, it's pretty obvious that you're not missing out on much by choosing to just work on skills that are universally applicable and "evergreen". But, when you add in to that the fact that every six-ish months we also hear "Wow. These new revs of the LLM products are just as stupid and nondeterministic as the old ones. They also still make the same classes of stupid mistakes, are pretty much as dangerously unreliable as they always have been [0], and -just like previous versions- have 'capability rot' that cannot be anticipated, but might be caused by inability to handle current demand, deliberate shifting of backend resources to serve newer, more-hyped LLM products, or even errors in the vibecoded vendor-supplied tooling that interfaces with the backend.", the decision to ignore the FOMO and hype becomes pretty obviously correct.

> I mean, the series literally ends with "maybe I'll try to code with it."

Well, this is how the series ends:

   The security consequences are minimal, it’s a constrained use case that I can verify by hand, and I wouldn’t be pushing tech debt on anyone else. I still write plenty of code, and I could stop any time. What would be the harm?
   
   Right?
   
   ...Right?
There's a certain subtlety to this that you missed. [2]

If we ignore that subtlety, I expect that your retort to a report that goes "Wow. They suck just as hard at coding for me as they do for everything else I've attempted to use them for. I'm not surprised because I've talked to professional programmers who regularly use these things in their dayjobs and I'm getting results that are similar to what they've been reporting to me." will be "Bro. You didn't spend enough time learning how to use it, bro!".

By way of analogy, I'll also mention -somewhat crassly- that one doesn't have to have an enormous bosom to understand that all that weight can cause substantial back pain. One can rely on both one's informed understanding of the fundamentals behind the system under consideration, as well as first-hand testimony from enormous-bosom-equipped people to arrive at that conclusion.

[0] eg. [1] and many, many other examples

[1] https://github.com/anthropics/claude-code/issues/39201>

[2] Your failure to notice that subtlety makes me wonder how often you use LLMs to summarize lengthy technical articles that you read.

Re: The future of everything is lies, I guess: Where do we go from here?

#786
post #767

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You missed the part where he is consistently unimpressed by the failure of LLMs to do the task he hands to them... Not really, those are exactly the things said by people who dabble with LLMs a little and turn to "breathless naysaying" without any effort to really figure out this new technology. I mean, the series literally ends with "maybe I'll try to code with it." > Yes. It ignores the "infinite nuances involved…

> Not really, those are exactly the things said by people who dabble with LLMs a little... From the footnote in section 1.5: The examples I give in this essay are mainly from major commercial models (e.g. ChatGPT GPT-5.4, Gemini 3.1 Pro, or Claude Opus 4.6) in the last three months; several are from late March. Several of them come from experienced software engineers who use LLMs professionally in their work. Modern…

[1] is so bad, like the worst imaginable thing you can think of... like if this is the possible fuckup all bets are off what other fuckups you might need to deal with. I got hit with this problem several times and I was like "well this is just impossible..." absolutely mind-blown

Re: The future of everything is lies, I guess: Where do we go from here?

#787

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you haven't spent time in "online circles" then why is your understanding of vulnerable road users and non-car options limited to only bikes, light rail, and Critical Mass? What about rail trails projects? Does your area follow any NACTO guidelines? How does your DOT/DPW see things? I don't deny the general idea that motorists in the US tend to have a crab mentality on the road where they want and expect everyone…

If anything, the commenter's circumscribed scope of discussion only reinforces the point that they are informed by personal experience and not the internet echo chamber. Whereas you are throwing out these gatekeep-y acronyms to establish transit advocate street cred. In my town the issues are rail trails and kids dying on e-bikes. Are my opinions on rail banking invalid if I don't know all the rules about wheelchair…

If you're going to post something as contrarian as they did then yes. Cars are popular and the American built environment is oriented around them. You might not like it, but nobody will take your seriously if you don't acknowledge the status quo.

The exact set of topics they brought up are very online. I may be wrong about their experience with urbanism but it literally looks like something out of r/fuckcars

Re: The future of everything is lies, I guess: Where do we go from here?

#788

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. Studies show time and time again that smart people are more efficient even at tasks that may not look like they require a smart person. So while people might not have been paid to do thinking jobs I don't buy that the intelligent did not always have had an edge, all else being equal.

> all else being equal. "Load bearing phrase", as they say. A stupid ass that just keeps pushing on often goes further than a smart ass who gets distracted.

The point here is not that intelligence is somehow the super property where if you have slightly more intelligence then your neighbor that means you are better even if they are stronger, need less sleep, are more dexterous, are more mentally resilient etc. The point is that intelligence is an advantage.

Re: The future of everything is lies, I guess: Where do we go from here?

#789

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not aware of any jobs where physical robustness is the primary job attribute. The machine is always better. There are jobs that demand robustness, but they are about applying knowledge in extreme conditions, not about letting an AI do the thinking.

> I'm not aware of any jobs where physical robustness is the primary job attribute. Not really disagreeing with you, but there are a few obvious examples. A lot of construction jobs are still labour intensive, and I've seen a lot of people who don't last the first day, let alone their first week. Also, security jobs, say in nightclubs, also value physical robustness. Orderlies in hospital, require the ability to move…

There are a lot of jobs where physical robustness is an important job attribute. That's not the same as saying it's the primary attribute, though. You aren't paying that construction worker to lift things, you're paying him to place things correctly--a skill computers still fare quite poorly at. Lifting is not the focus.

Re: The future of everything is lies, I guess: Where do we go from here?

#790

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have any idea what job they have, how good they are at it, what their company does, what industry they work in, whether their income is backed by labour, knowledge work, emotional connection, government relationships, capital investments, ... See above.

Your point is understandable but not knowing makes it worse for purposes of discussion since we have to assume the most likely case rather than an exceptional one.

Who said AI taking your job is "the most likely" case? Even by those extreme estimates of 30% unemployment or whatever - that still leaves ~65% of jobs not lost to AI.
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