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Playdate’s handheld changed how Duke University teaches game design

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Re: Playdate’s handheld changed how Duke University teaches game design

#61

Post by grufkork »

Jach wrote: post #56

For a Masters program it's pretty weird but I assume prospective students will be aware, and they move on to learning Unreal, so... It's always struck me as a bit silly how so many schools use some very niche tooling as part of "simplifying" or "adding constraints". I would have thought that such stuff was kept at the undergrad level. Even DigiPen (where the "famous" undergrad CS-like degree has you writing your own…

For teaching, it depends a lot on what you’re trying to teach. In some courses I’m involved in we’re intentionally using old, limited, obtuse or otherwise just strange tools and equipment for the sake of practicing debugging, reading specs approaching an unknown system. The point of those courses is not to learn the tool itself but to learn methodology that can be generalised.

As I said however, it depends on when in the timeline we’re looking. For 3-year bachelor’s programmes, there’s significantly more focus on producing graduates who can move straight into the industry, having already learnt the tools they will use. For theoretical 5-year master’s programmes, knowing specific hardware or software is secondary to the general reasoning, maths and planning that’s expected in research or R&D industry work.

Using more limited or restricted tools, if thought out well, can force students focus on the parts that matter. I haven’t actually used the Playdate, but for first-year students I would think the most important thing is to actually get to designing games. The core ideas you’d want to teach do not require fancy graphics or platform support, rather, that’d just be a time sink. Learning industry tools can be done in later courses or on the job. While being able to work efficiently is important - I don’t want to discredit the handiwork of the process, learning what buttons to push in eg. Unreal is arguably much less ephemeral than learning ”game design”.

However, using limited tools in teaching must be well motivated. Forcing old, obsolete tech onto students might be a learning experience just as well as a time sink.

Re: Playdate’s handheld changed how Duke University teaches game design

#62

Post by Jach »

oulipo2 wrote: post #59
Jach wrote: post #56

For a Masters program it's pretty weird but I assume prospective students will be aware, and they move on to learning Unreal, so... It's always struck me as a bit silly how so many schools use some very niche tooling as part of "simplifying" or "adding constraints". I would have thought that such stuff was kept at the undergrad level. Even DigiPen (where the "famous" undergrad CS-like degree has you writing your own…

The article makes it quite clear as you read that the appeal is the constraints, it allows the students to think outside of the box, and ask themselves a lot of interesting questions

That's the intention, sure, and as long as prospective Masters students know that's what they're getting into and paying for, and are looking forward to it, then it's fine or whatever. But it still strikes me as a silly constraint, just as it would be to require an in-house engine that sucks, or requiring students to develop for some old Nintendo hardware, or requiring students to fit everything in under 96k.[0] Anyone can add arbitrary constraints to anything, and lots of interesting questions will arise from figuring out how to deal with (or work around) such constraints. But is the constraint to develop for this specific device (and all the sub constraints that implies) actually a good one vs. any other set of constraints, especially for the purposes of game design? I doubt it. Especially how some of the constraints like only using black-and-white graphics are easily enforced without also requiring such a specific niche device.

[0] .kkrieger (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NBG-sKFaB0) is my favorite of this genre of constraints, but it's mainly impressive for being possible at all (and you can read up on some of the developer notes for how much effort was put into satisfying this constraint). It didn't actually advance the design of FPSes or anything, and FPS design ideas could be better learned by making and iterating on an FPS without the tiny size constraint. If students want to impose extra constraints on themselves, like developing for the Playdate and making use of its crank for game control, go for it, but it's a bit different when they're imposed from the outside for no real reason other than "hey, it's some constraints, and constraints breed creativity".

Re: Playdate’s handheld changed how Duke University teaches game design

#63

Post by latexr »

fn-mote wrote: post #21

Re: price point HN readers who can write a console game before bedtime are not the target audience. A handheld device that Just Works and creates an authentic experience is worth a lot. For a college class, a $200 textbook isn’t out of line (the ones people still buy…), which makes this a very reasonable investment in one’s education. Are there other, cheaper routes? Of course. For an introduction? Fewer, and nobody…

That’s a very USA-centric view. 200$ for a textbook which will (often) only be used for a couple of chapters and was written by the professor shouldn’t be normal anywhere. The price of that book could pay for months (and in some cases years) of tuition in EU countries.

As someone from the EU who was always curious about the Playdate, I never got one because the price becomes even more absurd once you factor shipping and taxes. It easily goes to double or more. I wish Panic all the luck with the console, but I think we can agree that paying Switch 2 / PlayStation 5 prices for one is hard to justify.

Re: Playdate’s handheld changed how Duke University teaches game design

#64

Post by sbcgamer »

fn-mote wrote: post #21

Re: price point HN readers who can write a console game before bedtime are not the target audience. A handheld device that Just Works and creates an authentic experience is worth a lot. For a college class, a $200 textbook isn’t out of line (the ones people still buy…), which makes this a very reasonable investment in one’s education. Are there other, cheaper routes? Of course. For an introduction? Fewer, and nobody…

> A handheld device that Just Works and creates an authentic experience is worth a lot.

yeah, it's worth around $64.79 current price

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1x_PmVHiQNHyw5t05peED...

...

It's not the format, there are cheaper, more open and more easily shared formats. It's the Developer Experience of the Playdate.

Re: Playdate’s handheld changed how Duke University teaches game design

#65

Post by nosrepa »

Doxin wrote: post #52
omoikane wrote: post #22

Playdate development has been a great experience. The limited colors and RAM helps me reduce my project scope such that I would actually finish them, and the limited CPU makes optimization exercises more rewarding. And it's not just all constraints either -- the sound/synth system is quite nice, and the crank is fun input method that takes some hands-on experience to fully appreciate. The only downside is that there…

you can run playdate games on the desktop using the emulator included in the free SDK. It won't be as fun as running it on an actual device, but nothing stopping people from actually messing with making playdate games without a playdate.

I'd imagine they know as they developed games for it. Their point was the audience size due to it being niche, not that it's hard to test.

Re: Playdate’s handheld changed how Duke University teaches game design

#66

Post by nosrepa »

Spinfusor wrote: post #35
sssilver wrote: post #26

It’s a wonderful device and I own one but lack of screen backlight makes it practically unusable, and at its price point almost vulgarly expensive. God knows how much I wanted to use and love it but it just started gathering dust in a closet after a week because of this.

If it had a backlight, I would have bought one by now.

Unfortunately, that type of screen cannot be backlit. There are frontlit versions, but they are thicker and would consume a bit more power.

Re: Playdate’s handheld changed how Duke University teaches game design

#67

Post by nosrepa »

qrush wrote: post #24

My playdate has been collecting dust since I got it and the initial few games I tried didn't stick. Any suggestions on good games for it?

Diora, Carte Blanche, Devils on The Moon, Match-O-3000, just to name a few off the top of my head.

Re: Playdate’s handheld changed how Duke University teaches game design

#68

Post by barrkel »

gnopgnip wrote: post #55
jubilanti wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A $200 textbook should absolutely be out of line

For an advanced course that is how the economics works out. They are expensive to produce and have limited demand, and typically only for a few years until they are replaced.

Yes, but this is intentional, and that's what's out of line. The main content stays the same but exercises and case studies are rotated out to force an upgrade.

The business strategy class I took in college in Ireland used the same book for two or three years, even though the book was reshuffled every year, just to enable some spreading of the financial burden on students.

Re: Playdate’s handheld changed how Duke University teaches game design

#69

Post by thenthenthen »

Jach wrote: post #62
oulipo2 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article makes it quite clear as you read that the appeal is the constraints, it allows the students to think outside of the box, and ask themselves a lot of interesting questions

That's the intention, sure, and as long as prospective Masters students know that's what they're getting into and paying for, and are looking forward to it, then it's fine or whatever. But it still strikes me as a silly constraint, just as it would be to require an in-house engine that sucks, or requiring students to develop for some old Nintendo hardware, or requiring students to fit everything in under 96k.[0] Anyo…

Agree with the niche-ness, for me this would be big red flag, especially in education.

Re: Playdate’s handheld changed how Duke University teaches game design

#70

Post by smith7018 »

latexr wrote: post #63
fn-mote wrote: post #21

Re: price point HN readers who can write a console game before bedtime are not the target audience. A handheld device that Just Works and creates an authentic experience is worth a lot. For a college class, a $200 textbook isn’t out of line (the ones people still buy…), which makes this a very reasonable investment in one’s education. Are there other, cheaper routes? Of course. For an introduction? Fewer, and nobody…

That’s a very USA-centric view. 200$ for a textbook which will (often) only be used for a couple of chapters and was written by the professor shouldn’t be normal anywhere. The price of that book could pay for months (and in some cases years) of tuition in EU countries. As someone from the EU who was always curious about the Playdate, I never got one because the price becomes even more absurd once you factor shipping…

Duke University is, in fact, in North Carolina, USA.
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