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Google, Microsoft, Meta All Tracking You Even When You Opt Out

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Re: Google, Microsoft, Meta All Tracking You Even When You Opt Out

#61

Post by tlibert »

nostrademons wrote: post #42
tlibert wrote: post #9

Hi, I'm Dr Tim Libert, founder of webXray who did this audit. Happy to answer questions from YC'ers. [Note, stepping away for some mental health exercise, stressful day!] I also want to push back on Google telling the press our California Privacy Audit is "is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of how [Google's] products work". I'm the former head of Cookie Compliance at Google and I have the federal court filing…

The GPC spec does not say "no cookies will be set" [1], and does not mention cookies at all. It merely provides a way for the user to indicate their preference that their information not be shared or tracked. The spec even says: > In the absence of regulatory, legal, or other requirements, websites can interpret an expressed Global Privacy Control preference as they find most appropriate for the given person, particu…

To quote our report: At webXray we are experts in tracking technologies, and we work closely with in-house counsel, defense, plaintiff firms, and regulators. However, we are not lawyers ourselves, thus nothing in this report represents a legal conclusion. webXray was not founded to supplant the role of lawyers, courts, or judges. We were founded to provide clear, accurate, forensic data, without fear or favor. We believe that by filling this gap we can enhance outcomes for all consumers, businesses, and regulators.

---

We are filing the gap related to reliable facts not existing. We did a scientifically controlled test with GPC on and off. We presented the results as technical findings along with general background.

We are not lawyers, and we are happy to help others perform their own audits: https://webxray.ai - we have no desire to be lawyers.

We are a hard-tech engineering outfit, we deliver scientific clarity on complex topics.

Re: Google, Microsoft, Meta All Tracking You Even When You Opt Out

#62

Post by tlibert »

lazide wrote: post #56
tlibert wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Execs are paid in stock, the only consequence that would matter is missing revenue projections for 2 quarters in a row, that's yet to happen.

Wells Fargo finally took a dive this quarter - we’ll see what happens.

2 quarters. ;-)

Re: Google, Microsoft, Meta All Tracking You Even When You Opt Out

#63

Post by tlibert »

Balinares wrote: post #35
benrutter wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cookies != Tracking, they can track you just fine without cookies That's probably true, but not what the articles reporting: > 55 percent of the sites it checked set ad cookies in a user’s browser even if they opted out of tracking So essentially, it's ignoring user preference directly, not just in spirit.

"Legitimate interest."

That concept is applicable to the European Union, doesn't apply in California.

Re: Google, Microsoft, Meta All Tracking You Even When You Opt Out

#64

Post by throwawayq3423 »

tlibert wrote: post #9

Hi, I'm Dr Tim Libert, founder of webXray who did this audit. Happy to answer questions from YC'ers. [Note, stepping away for some mental health exercise, stressful day!] I also want to push back on Google telling the press our California Privacy Audit is "is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of how [Google's] products work". I'm the former head of Cookie Compliance at Google and I have the federal court filing…

Not sure why you're being downvoted. Thank you for what you do.

Re: Google, Microsoft, Meta All Tracking You Even When You Opt Out

#65

Post by warkdarrior »

tlibert wrote: post #61
nostrademons wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The GPC spec does not say "no cookies will be set" [1], and does not mention cookies at all. It merely provides a way for the user to indicate their preference that their information not be shared or tracked. The spec even says: > In the absence of regulatory, legal, or other requirements, websites can interpret an expressed Global Privacy Control preference as they find most appropriate for the given person, particu…

To quote our report: At webXray we are experts in tracking technologies, and we work closely with in-house counsel, defense, plaintiff firms, and regulators. However, we are not lawyers ourselves, thus nothing in this report represents a legal conclusion. webXray was not founded to supplant the role of lawyers, courts, or judges. We were founded to provide clear, accurate, forensic data, without fear or favor. We bel…

So you agree that you have no way to confirm whether those websites honor or do not honor the do-not-sell-my-info choice. You are simply checking whether they set cookies or not, without knowing whether the data is sold or not on the backend.

Re: Google, Microsoft, Meta All Tracking You Even When You Opt Out

#66

Post by tlibert »

jmward01 wrote: post #60
tlibert wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only reason I ever click reject is to open the devtools and count the ads cookies still set. I managed to turn that hobby into https://webxray.ai as a business.

There may be an opportunity here for a plugin that auto-reports violations in some way that can then be used in lawsuits against these companies. Obviously there are privacy concerns with something like this but there may be ways to anonymize the data or otherwise preserve privacy meaningfully. There is 'company X is doing bad thing' and 'company X did bad thing, provably, this many times to these people'.

For legal work you need a controlled forensic environment, this is evidence gathering in the same way a crime scene is. We've developed a lot of proprietary methods to ensure clean-room conditions.

That's not to say the idea isn't interesting, but in terms of legal proceedings, chain of custody with the forensic data is most important.

Re: Google, Microsoft, Meta All Tracking You Even When You Opt Out

#67

Post by tlibert »

sigbottle wrote: post #47
jmward01 wrote: post #41

I always opt out if given the option and if not given the option I click x and close the site. However, unfortunately, I have assumed that they are already tracking me when the pop-up hits. This kinda confirms that is true. We have 'get tough on X, Y, Z' things that don't impact me at all. You can dial 911 if someone assaults you in the US, but I don't know of a single resource to get law enforcement involved when I…

Forget the "Humans must always be in the loop for accountability" argument against AI, we already don't have such checks today!

Ha, the question is always "which humans"!

Re: Google, Microsoft, Meta All Tracking You Even When You Opt Out

#68

Post by tlibert »

warkdarrior wrote: post #65
tlibert wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To quote our report: At webXray we are experts in tracking technologies, and we work closely with in-house counsel, defense, plaintiff firms, and regulators. However, we are not lawyers ourselves, thus nothing in this report represents a legal conclusion. webXray was not founded to supplant the role of lawyers, courts, or judges. We were founded to provide clear, accurate, forensic data, without fear or favor. We bel…

So you agree that you have no way to confirm whether those websites honor or do not honor the do-not-sell-my-info choice. You are simply checking whether they set cookies or not, without knowing whether the data is sold or not on the backend.

We run scientific audits that provide evidence of specific data transfers under specific network conditions.

Re: Google, Microsoft, Meta All Tracking You Even When You Opt Out

#69

Post by tlibert »

throwawayq3423 wrote: post #64
tlibert wrote: post #9

Hi, I'm Dr Tim Libert, founder of webXray who did this audit. Happy to answer questions from YC'ers. [Note, stepping away for some mental health exercise, stressful day!] I also want to push back on Google telling the press our California Privacy Audit is "is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of how [Google's] products work". I'm the former head of Cookie Compliance at Google and I have the federal court filing…

Not sure why you're being downvoted. Thank you for what you do.

Appreciated, means a lot.

I'm not surprised at the downvotes, but someday we all have to look in the mirror and decide if we like what we see, but it's easier to downvote in the meantime.

Re: Google, Microsoft, Meta All Tracking You Even When You Opt Out

#70

Post by tlibert »

rockskon wrote: post #10
dec0dedab0de wrote: post #7

I mean duh, but also this seems like a fairly weak gotcha. Cookies != Tracking, they can track you just fine without cookies, and they can use cookies without tracking you.

Cooking != Tracking? That's historically been a very prominent purpose of cookies. Sure it's not exclusively tracking, but it's nonsense to make the assertion that "Cookies != Tracking"

Cookies serve a lot of valuable purposes, it's important to disambiguate.
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