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For the first time in the U.S., renewables generate more power than natural gas

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Re: For the first time in the U.S., renewables generate more power than natural gas

#21

Post by epistasis »

nradov wrote: post #12
bluGill wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

nuclear is not useful today. It is too slow to change output as load changes. We need to focus on storage for all the excess power renewables give at the best case, shifting that to worst case-

If we want to have an industrial economy with 24×7 heavy manufacturing then we need nuclear power for the base load. There's no need to change output much. The amount of batteries needed to keep a huge factory running is ridiculous.

The need for nuclear is simply not clear. Storage has advance so quickly, while nuclear tech has remained stagnant or even gotten more expensive.

Eve China, the best nuclear power builders out there, are shifting away from massive nuclear to storage and wind and solar.

Without a major technological innovation in the nuclear power space, I don't see how it can compete, except at the poles and in niches with very poor renewable resources.

Re: For the first time in the U.S., renewables generate more power than natural gas

#22

Post by colechristensen »

itopaloglu83 wrote: post #9

I wonder how good it could be if the governments offered the exact same amount of subsidies to renewable energy they offer to coal and petroleum, including indirect subsidies like distribution infrastructure etc.

Can we stop with this? It's not a helpful line of thinking or a useful argument. This is the batman vs. superman argument of children at a comic convention. Arguing whether federal highway funding factors in to the cost of coal is absurdly useless.

"I wonder how good it could be"

It's already here, solar is already dramatically cheaper and has none of the risk profile a global energy market produces. You install solar and you have that energy for decades.

Solar is here and its cheaper, batteries are good enough for utility scale. Now its simply an adoption curve.

Moralizing or bringing up silly arguments about how cost ought to be accounted should be considered harmful to the progress away from fossil fuels. Unless it's your intent to start pointless arguments.

Re: For the first time in the U.S., renewables generate more power than natural gas

#23

Post by barbazoo »

wood_spirit wrote: post #18
mchusma wrote: post #3

I do think the Iran crisis should continue to push countries towards nuclear + solar. Like Ukraine helped shift some in Europe back to supporting nuclear after foolishly shutting down reactors.

Most uranium mining is from Russia/CIS and those African counties that have experienced the recent wave of Wagner-assisted coups. The West needs to be energy independent, not just swap who it is dependent upon?

https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/nuclear-fuel-c...

It's actually more diverse than I thought.

Re: For the first time in the U.S., renewables generate more power than natural gas

#24

Post by Jblx2 »

itopaloglu83 wrote: post #9

I wonder how good it could be if the governments offered the exact same amount of subsidies to renewable energy they offer to coal and petroleum, including indirect subsidies like distribution infrastructure etc.

Is there a good resource for finding out more about fossil fuel subsidies? There are lots of questionable sources out there, like ones that inform you that oil companies only pay taxes on profits, not on revenue, so they consider that a subsidy. But that is just like every other company.

Re: For the first time in the U.S., renewables generate more power than natural gas

#25

Post by pydry »

nsxwolf wrote: post #10
pydry wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poland was ~80% coal before Ukraine. It wasnt energy independence which got them interested in nuclear power it was the idea that they might one day want a nuclear bomb (in case the current nuclear umbrella goes away). It's never an economic decision to build nuclear power stations. They're 5x the cost of solar and wind.

If we actually cared about making nuclear cheap - getting rid of the political barriers to building Gen IV reactors, not throwing away our “waste”, it would beat the pants off solar by operating 24/7 and not using up all our land.

While we're at it I would actually prefer it if nuclear power paid for its own catastrophe insurance instead of lumping that burden on taxpayers.

Currently their liability is capped at $300 million. Fukushima cleanup cost $800 billion.

End the insurance free ride first and then maybe lets talk about deregulation.

Re: For the first time in the U.S., renewables generate more power than natural gas

#26

Post by [deleted] »

oklahomasports wrote: post #20
itopaloglu83 wrote: post #9

I wonder how good it could be if the governments offered the exact same amount of subsidies to renewable energy they offer to coal and petroleum, including indirect subsidies like distribution infrastructure etc.

You also then have to include the subsidies renewables have gotten. They of course also use distribution infrastructure

[deleted]

Re: For the first time in the U.S., renewables generate more power than natural gas

#27

Post by ezst »

itopaloglu83 wrote: post #9

I wonder how good it could be if the governments offered the exact same amount of subsidies to renewable energy they offer to coal and petroleum, including indirect subsidies like distribution infrastructure etc.

Or subsidize nuclear because it complements beautifully solar & wind as cheap and clean energy?

Re: For the first time in the U.S., renewables generate more power than natural gas

#28

Post by gpm »

bluGill wrote: post #7
mchusma wrote: post #3

I do think the Iran crisis should continue to push countries towards nuclear + solar. Like Ukraine helped shift some in Europe back to supporting nuclear after foolishly shutting down reactors.

nuclear is not useful today. It is too slow to change output as load changes. We need to focus on storage for all the excess power renewables give at the best case, shifting that to worst case-

That we now have cheap storage makes nuclear more useful, just like with solar/wind we can use storage to make nuclear follow the demand curve, something it was previously incapable of.

The problem with nuclear today is just that it simply hasn't kept pace with the lowering cost of alternatives.

Re: For the first time in the U.S., renewables generate more power than natural gas

#29

Post by contubernio »

mchusma wrote: post #3

I do think the Iran crisis should continue to push countries towards nuclear + solar. Like Ukraine helped shift some in Europe back to supporting nuclear after foolishly shutting down reactors.

The wars in Ukraine and irán have also highlighted what a horrendous insecurity nuclear power plants are. A direct missile attack on one could be catastrophic. The idea that such will never happen is as silly as the idea that there will never be an accident or a tsunami. But passive safety won't stop a missile.

Re: For the first time in the U.S., renewables generate more power than natural gas

#30

Post by cmrdporcupine »

mchusma wrote: post #3

I do think the Iran crisis should continue to push countries towards nuclear + solar. Like Ukraine helped shift some in Europe back to supporting nuclear after foolishly shutting down reactors.

The flush of $$ to North American oil companies will unfortunately lead to a pile of investment in more oil and gas exploration, refining, and transport.

Seeing that already here in Canada. All parties (except one) seem united in their newfound aspiration to just mine and ship more of the stuff.

Talking about transition is politically toxic here right now.

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