Live data from Hacker News

Petraeus case shows FBI's authority to read email

hosted.ap.org

21–30 of 41 posts

Re: Petraeus case shows FBI's authority to read email

#21
When you join the CIA you sign a piece of paper that says "You have the right to access all of my personal accounts of any kind."

Having gone through the process of accepting a job offer from the CIA (which I later declined due to the 2 year background check and a more fun job in the Bay Area) I can say this is an oversimplification. If you work for the CIA you explicitly agree to allow them to comb through any of your personal accounts at any time.

Re: Petraeus case shows FBI's authority to read email

#22
post #16

The most disturbing bit from the article: "Under the 1986 Electronic Communications Privacy Act, federal authorities need only a subpoena approved by a federal prosecutor - not a judge - to obtain electronic messages that are six months old or older."

It's only disturbing because people think of e-mail as equivalent to the letters in their desk rather than what it is: putting private information into the hands of private third parties in cleartext. The ECPA actually gives you an extra layer of protection--requiring a warrant for messages less than six months old. Under the principles of the 4th amendment, you wouldn't even have this much protection. In general, yo…

That is a controversial opinion, infortunately held by many in government (people whose unreasonable claims are the very matter the Constitution is designed to protect against) and repeating it is tantamount to propaganda, as it pushes people to change their expectations of privacy, which would then be abused by the Executive branch of government. Please stop paraphrasing abuses as though they are acceptable.

Re: Petraeus case shows FBI's authority to read email

#23
post #3

Petraeus signed all kinds of paperwork that said it was okay for the government to go digging around in his personal life, including email. This is really a non-story.

Sounds like you missed the point of the article: Under the 1986 Electronic Communications Privacy Act, federal authorities need only a subpoena approved by a federal prosecutor - not a judge - to obtain electronic messages that are six months old or older. Has nothing to do with what Patraeus signed.

Exactly. Has nothing to do with this.

Re: Petraeus case shows FBI's authority to read email

#24
post #16

The most disturbing bit from the article: "Under the 1986 Electronic Communications Privacy Act, federal authorities need only a subpoena approved by a federal prosecutor - not a judge - to obtain electronic messages that are six months old or older."

It's only disturbing because people think of e-mail as equivalent to the letters in their desk rather than what it is: putting private information into the hands of private third parties in cleartext. The ECPA actually gives you an extra layer of protection--requiring a warrant for messages less than six months old. Under the principles of the 4th amendment, you wouldn't even have this much protection. In general, yo…

Agreed. Other things that would probably drive people bannans is that a wiretap warrant is not needed to "tap" cell phone calls. The FBI can get access to cell call and logs much easier that a standard wiretap.

Re: Petraeus case shows FBI's authority to read email

#25
post #22
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only disturbing because people think of e-mail as equivalent to the letters in their desk rather than what it is: putting private information into the hands of private third parties in cleartext. The ECPA actually gives you an extra layer of protection--requiring a warrant for messages less than six months old. Under the principles of the 4th amendment, you wouldn't even have this much protection. In general, yo…

That is a controversial opinion, infortunately held by many in government (people whose unreasonable claims are the very matter the Constitution is designed to protect against) and repeating it is tantamount to propaganda, as it pushes people to change their expectations of privacy, which would then be abused by the Executive branch of government. Please stop paraphrasing abuses as though they are acceptable.

It's not really a controversial opinion, it's a fairly straightforward application of 4th amendment principles. There is nothing propagandist or unreasonable about pointing out that the 4th amendment has never protected information freely handed over to private third parties.

The Constitution doesn't always protect everything we think should be protected. The language of the 4th amendment clearly refers to the privacy rights of a person in his person and his personality. Extrapolating from there to documents he sends in cleartext through potentially numerous intermediaries is quite a stretch. Despite the fiction, e-mail isn't, at the protocol level, appreciably more private than leaving little notes to people tucked under park benches.

Re: Petraeus case shows FBI's authority to read email

#26
post #25
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a controversial opinion, infortunately held by many in government (people whose unreasonable claims are the very matter the Constitution is designed to protect against) and repeating it is tantamount to propaganda, as it pushes people to change their expectations of privacy, which would then be abused by the Executive branch of government. Please stop paraphrasing abuses as though they are acceptable.

It's not really a controversial opinion, it's a fairly straightforward application of 4th amendment principles. There is nothing propagandist or unreasonable about pointing out that the 4th amendment has never protected information freely handed over to private third parties. The Constitution doesn't always protect everything we think should be protected. The language of the 4th amendment clearly refers to the privac…

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Warshak

I certainly don't expect my mail carrier to hold my envelopes up to a lightbulb to decode the contents of my letters. Nor do I expect Delta to copy and distribute the documents in my briefcase when I put it in the cargo hold.

The fourth amendment protects my papers and effects, not only when they are on my person.

Re: Petraeus case shows FBI's authority to read email

#27
post #12
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would that stop you from being required to comply with a subpoena to supply old email from sageraven.com (hypothetical)?

I imagine that it's easier to fight a subpoena directed at you than it is to fight one directed at Google (for example).

You may be surprised. Google has more legal resources, and less fear off illegal imprisonment. The government had wide latitude for breaking its own laws against individuals.

Re: Petraeus case shows FBI's authority to read email

#28
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As they looked further, the FBI agents came across a private Gmail account that used an alias name. On further investigation, the account turned out to be Petraeus's. The FBI broke into the gmail account (or at least subpoenaed identifying information from google) before they knew whose it was. So no, it's not a non-story.

Does Google actually require subpoenas?

Yes, and Google fights them, and often wins.
Post reply on HN