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US appeals court declares 158-year-old home distilling ban unconstitutional

theguardian.com

201–210 of 337 posts

Re: US appeals court declares 158-year-old home distilling ban unconstitutional

#201

> … 1868 … $10,000 fine. If the original 1868 law stated $10,000, that’s insane (equivalent of millions , these days). If not, then that might mean this law has been regularly reviewed and updated, so it’s not just something that was lost in the back of the cabinet.

If laws were written by engineers, all sums of money would be expressed relative to median income. And at that point it wouldn't be a stretch for most people to make the connection that some people are more privileged than others and fines should be relative to personal wealth and income. Imagine if laws were written by people who know what a function is...

>If laws were written by engineers, all sums of money would be expressed relative to median income.

If laws were written by engineers, money would hold its value, and the laws wouldn't require constant adjustment.

Re: US appeals court declares 158-year-old home distilling ban unconstitutional

#202
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s actually a common myth perpetuated by the American government during prohibition. The Feds added methanol to bootlegged hooch to blind people, then they told people they’d go blind from moonshine to discourage it. Distillation doesn’t create alcohols, it only concentrates them. The ratio of ethanol to methanol in a distilled spirit will be approximately the same as in the wash it was distilled from. Drinking b…

> The Feds added methanol to bootlegged hooch how did that work? did the Feds pose as some false flag bootleggers? do you have some sources I could read up on? thing is, russia has a large tradition of home distillation (samogonka), and they too have tropes of people going blind. there have been a lot of cases of people dying because of bad alcohol, here's somewhat recent case: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/contaminat…

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/06/30/fac...

It’s quite common for people to add methanol to illegal liquor because it can be made cheaply from natural gas and is sold industrially everywhere. You are much more likely to be injured buying bootleg alcohol than making it.

Re: US appeals court declares 158-year-old home distilling ban unconstitutional

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s actually a common myth perpetuated by the American government during prohibition. The Feds added methanol to bootlegged hooch to blind people, then they told people they’d go blind from moonshine to discourage it. Distillation doesn’t create alcohols, it only concentrates them. The ratio of ethanol to methanol in a distilled spirit will be approximately the same as in the wash it was distilled from. Drinking b…

Huh, I thought if you held the outlet of the still at 79c until you stopped getting distillate then you could be reasonably sure that you took out most of the the majority of the methanol.

It’s more prevalent, and you might reduce the ratio of it, I was just pointing out that more than you expect will remain in even after tossing the fores.

And even if you just distilled until it was basically water coming out, then re-blended everything, you have not significantly worsened the ratio of the two

Re: US appeals court declares 158-year-old home distilling ban unconstitutional

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many hobbies with which people can kill themselves if they don't understand what they are doing. I don't see how brewing is different. A grown-up person has rights and bears the consequences of negligence and that's totally normal, that's what freedom is. As long as the product is not sold outside but for personal consumption, it must be legal to make without any certifications.

Agree completely, though sadly we are a very long way from this. In a lot of places it is literally illegal and prison-time just for growing certain naturally-occurring plants for purely personal use. I don't see how this ruling helps with that at all though

Maybe we are set to see that change at the federal level?

Re: US appeals court declares 158-year-old home distilling ban unconstitutional

#205

For those wondering, the opinion[0] doesn't address the Commerce Clause power (and Wickard and Raich) becaue the government abandoned that argument. See footnote 5. The Commerce Clause issue is raised in our other case[1] that's now pending before the Sixth Circuit. (I argued both cases.) [0] https://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions/pub/24/24-10760-CV0.pd... [1] https://www.buckeyeinstitute.org/issues/detail/ream-v-us-d…

Is there a genuine opportunity to overturn either Wickard or Raich? That would be exciting.

Raich is teed up. See our opening brief[0] at pp. 38–39.

[0] https://www.buckeyeinstitute.org/library/docLib/2025-06-24-T...

Re: US appeals court declares 158-year-old home distilling ban unconstitutional

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a whole ball of wax here that boils down to whether a society would rather be individualistic or collectivist. Its a chicken and egg problem as well, the way we regulate and manage health care and health insurance (at least in the US) allows for costs to pretty easily bleed out to the rest of society. That implies that we must then be collectivist in other policies, though that is counter to many of the origi…

The statue of liberty poem was never a legally binding immigration policy. Not to detract from your point, which I agree with.

It was marketing that was installed on the statute of liberty in 1903, when the U.S. was already fully developed. It doesn’t reflect the original intent at all.

Re: US appeals court declares 158-year-old home distilling ban unconstitutional

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prices tend to correlate strongly with wages and wages are very high in Norway for all work, so they also have some of the highest prices on basically everything. Another lol example is a Big Mac combo meal in Oslo - you're looking at around $20.

Scandinavian countries have very specific alcohol policies, though, very restrictionist, and the tax is part of this. This is not just question of "more expensive country, more expensive stuff". Switzerland or Luxembourg are quite expensive, but you will buy affordable and good Italian/Spanish/French wine there, because these countries don't impose anywhere near as much taxation on wine.

If you’re in Romandie in Switzerland I would recommend local wines, that’s one thing the whole French speaking region is well known for (source: I’m from there)

Re: US appeals court declares 158-year-old home distilling ban unconstitutional

#208

As tourists to sketchy places in Asia discovered, methanol poisoning is a real risk, even from large scale distillation. It is the quality control that matters. Illegal stills make quality control impossible, so legalisation and government certified testing can make it safe. However, this ruling is not about alcohol, it is about dissolving Federal authority exercised via the trade and commerce clause of the Constitut…

From ~1906 through prohibition the Feds purposely poisoned industrial alcohol with methanol and other chemicals as a deterrent. 100 years ago, in 1926, they increased it, up to as much as 10%. This was true rotgut. Around 10,000 people, mostly poor, died from it. Blindness, organ failure, paralysis. This was legal and regulated by the Volstead Act. It was the primary source of methanol poisoning during prohibition.

Aren't morals strange? Governments would rather poison and blind those who would imbibe ethanol when it's prohibited or when they do so without paying excise tax.

Morally and ethically such action results in a much worse outcome for society for many reasons. Unfortunately, that's not the view of many or those laws would not have been enacted. Even in our more enlightened times many still hold such punitive beliefs as witnessed by some posts here on HN. It seems to me opinion on whether or not alcoholic beverages ought to be permitted in society has been around so long and yet still remains so divided that the chasm will likely never close.

Fortunately, where I live (Australia) the toxic denaturants in ethanol (methanol (~15℅) and pyridine (~3%)) were removed quite some decades ago and replaced with a nontoxic denaturant—the bitterant denatonium.

We nevertheless still have a lingering reminder of the past: the once non-potable ethanol was called "Methylated Spirits" and its replacement still is! Nowadays, the methanol and pyridine are gone and what's always been colloquially nicknamed "Metho" is still labeled "Methylated Spirits" but now only consists of 95% ethanol and 5% water—the trace amount of denatonium denaturant isn't even mentioned on the label but it's definitely there.

An interesting observation: the old toxic methylated ethanol was emblazoned with the word "POISON" whereas our new Metho sans MeOH is only labeled "CAUTION".

BTW, above I mentioned the chasm never closing, whilst writing this my earlier post has oscillated wildly around a net 0, I now have the same number of votes that I started with before posting. Seems opinions are even more divided on this subject than I'd ever imagined (damn shame HN only tallies totals and not both up and down votes).

Re: US appeals court declares 158-year-old home distilling ban unconstitutional

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If laws were written by engineers, all sums of money would be expressed relative to median income. And at that point it wouldn't be a stretch for most people to make the connection that some people are more privileged than others and fines should be relative to personal wealth and income. Imagine if laws were written by people who know what a function is...

>If laws were written by engineers, all sums of money would be expressed relative to median income. If laws were written by engineers, money would hold its value, and the laws wouldn't require constant adjustment.

You and I must know different engineers.

Re: US appeals court declares 158-year-old home distilling ban unconstitutional

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I forget the exact wording, but the seat belt law are a good example of it. Laws are passed to protect the populace from self harm so that society doesn't suffer from it. It probably doesn't apply here because home distillation is very niche. However, if a bunch of people show up in emergency rooms and it drives up health care costs then expect a quick reversal in policy.

There's a whole ball of wax here that boils down to whether a society would rather be individualistic or collectivist. Its a chicken and egg problem as well, the way we regulate and manage health care and health insurance (at least in the US) allows for costs to pretty easily bleed out to the rest of society. That implies that we must then be collectivist in other policies, though that is counter to many of the origi…

> a society would rather be individualistic

This is a bit oxymoronic. People are a bit too happy to pick and choose what they like and otherwise pretend they're an island to themselves, but it doesn't take a communist to see the contradiction.

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