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Small models also found the vulnerabilities that Mythos found

aisle.com

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Re: Small models also found the vulnerabilities that Mythos found

#11

Post by dist-epoch »

Anthropic claim is not necessarily that Mythos found vulnerabilities that other models couldn't but that it could easily exploit them while previous models failed to do that:

> “Opus 4.6 is currently far better at identifying and fixing vulnerabilities than at exploiting them.” Our internal evaluations showed that Opus 4.6 generally had a near-0% success rate at autonomous exploit development. But Mythos Preview is in a different league. For example, Opus 4.6 turned the vulnerabilities it had found in Mozilla’s Firefox 147 JavaScript engine—all patched in Firefox 148—into JavaScript shell exploits only two times out of several hundred attempts. We re-ran this experiment as a benchmark for Mythos Preview, which developed working exploits 181 times, and achieved register control on 29 more.

Re: Small models also found the vulnerabilities that Mythos found

#12

Post by elicash »

epistasis wrote: post #5

> We took the specific vulnerabilities Anthropic showcases in their announcement, isolated the relevant code, and ran them through small, cheap, open-weights models. Those models recovered much of the same analysis. Eight out of eight models detected Mythos's flagship FreeBSD exploit, including one with only 3.6 billion active parameters costing $0.11 per million tokens. Impressive, and very valuable work, but isolat…

This is from the first of the caveats that they list:

> Scoped context: Our tests gave models the vulnerable function directly, often with contextual hints (e.g., "consider wraparound behavior"). A real autonomous discovery pipeline starts from a full codebase with no hints. The models' performance here is an upper bound on what they'd achieve in a fully autonomous scan. That said, a well-designed scaffold naturally produces this kind of scoped context through its targeting and iterative prompting stages, which is exactly what both AISLE's and Anthropic's systems do.

That's why their point is what the subheadline says, that the moat is the system, not the model.

Everybody so far here seems to be misunderstanding the point they are making.

Re: Small models also found the vulnerabilities that Mythos found

#13

Post by chirau »

Their isolation approach is totally different from Mythos approach though. Mythos had to evaluate whole code bases rather than isolated sections. It's like saying one dog walked into the Amazon jungle and found a tennis ball and then another team isolated a 1 square kilometer radius that they knew the ball was definitely in and found the same ball.

Re: Small models also found the vulnerabilities that Mythos found

#14

Post by aniceperson »

amazingamazing wrote: post #9

Did mythos isolate the code to begin with? Without a clear methodology that can be attempted with another model the whole thing is meaningless

to be fair, last post i saw from anthropic on finding linux kernel vulnerability was a while loop per failed prompting "there is a vulnerability here, find it" more important than that, no frontier model can keep the entire linux kernel in context, so there definitely is code isolation, either explicitly or implicitly (the model itself delegates subagents with smaller chunks of code)

Re: Small models also found the vulnerabilities that Mythos found

#15

Post by johnfn »

The Anthropic writeup addresses this explicitly:

> This was the most critical vulnerability we discovered in OpenBSD with Mythos Preview after a thousand runs through our scaffold. Across a thousand runs through our scaffold, the total cost was under $20,000 and found several dozen more findings. While the specific run that found the bug above cost under $50, that number only makes sense with full hindsight. Like any search process, we can't know in advance which run will succeed.

Mythos scoured the entire continent for gold and found some. For these small models, the authors pointed at a particular acre of land and said "any gold there? eh? eh?" while waggling their eyebrows suggestively.

For a true apples-to-apples comparison, let's see it sweep the entire FreeBSD codebase. I hypothesize it will find the exploit, but it will also turn up so much irrelevant nonsense that it won't matter.

Re: Small models also found the vulnerabilities that Mythos found

#16

Post by antirez »

Congrats: completely broken methodology, with a big conflict of interest. Giving specific bug hints, with an isolated function that is suspected to have bugs, is not the same task, NOR (crucially) is a task you can decompose the bigger task into. It is basically impossible to segment code in pieces, provide pieces to smaller models, and expect them to find all the bugs GPT 5.4 or other large models can find. Second: the smarter the model, and less the pipeline is important. In the latest couple of days I found tons if Redis bugs with a three prompts open-ended pipeline composed of a couple of shell scripts. Do you think I was not already tying with weaker models? I did, but it didn't work. Don't trust what you read, you have access to frontier models for 20$ a month. Download some C code, create a trivial pipeline that starts from a random file and looks for vulnerabilities, then another step that validates it under a hard test, like ASAN crash, or ability to reach some secret, and so forth, and only then the problem can be reported. Test yourself what it is possible. Don't let your fear make you blind. Also, there is a big problem that makes the blog post reasoning not just weak per se, but categorically weak: if small model X can find 80% of vulnerabilities, if there is a model Y that can find the other potential 20%, we need "Y": the maintainers should make sure they access to models that are at least as good as the black hats folks.

Re: Small models also found the vulnerabilities that Mythos found

#17

Post by woodruffw »

> Those models recovered much of the same analysis

This is an essentially unquantifiable statement that makes the underlying claim harder to believe as an external party. What does “much” mean here? The end state of vulnerability exploitation is typically eminently quantifiable (in the form of a functional PoC that demonstrates an exploited end state), so the strong version of the claims here would ideally be backed up by those kinds of PoCs.

(Like other readers, I also find the trick of pre-feeding the smaller models the “relevant” code to be potentially disqualifying in a fair comparison. Discovering the relevant code is arguably one of the hardest parts of human VR.)

Re: Small models also found the vulnerabilities that Mythos found

#18

Post by loire280 »

epistasis wrote: post #5

> We took the specific vulnerabilities Anthropic showcases in their announcement, isolated the relevant code, and ran them through small, cheap, open-weights models. Those models recovered much of the same analysis. Eight out of eight models detected Mythos's flagship FreeBSD exploit, including one with only 3.6 billion active parameters costing $0.11 per million tokens. Impressive, and very valuable work, but isolat…

> Anthropic's own scaffold is described in their technical post: launch a container, prompt the model to scan files, let it hypothesize and test, use ASan as a crash oracle, rank files by attack surface, run validation. That is very close to the kind of system we and others in the field have built, and we've demonstrated it with multiple model families, achieving our best results with models that are not Anthropic's. The value lies in the targeting, the iterative deepening, the validation, the triage, the maintainer trust. The public evidence so far does not suggest that these workflows must be coupled to one specific frontier model.

The argument in the article is that the framework to run and analyze the software being tested is doing most of the work in Anthropic's experiment, and that you can get similar results from other models when used in the same way.

Re: Small models also found the vulnerabilities that Mythos found

#20

Post by tptacek »

If you cut out the vulnerable code from Heartbleed and just put it in front of a C programmer, they will immediately flag it. It's obvious. But it took Neel Mehta to discover it. What's difficult about finding vulnerabilities isn't properly identifying whether code is mishandling buffers or holding references after freeing something; it's spotting that in the context of a large, complex program, and working out how attacker-controlled data hits that code.

It's weird that Aisle wrote this.

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