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Alone Together, Again

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Re: Alone Together, Again

#81

Post by hilko »

oz wrote: post #36
SoftwareMaven wrote: post #17

I spent so much time trying to organize the life that I thought I wanted. It wasn’t the same as living. Every single time I've tried to push my life in a direction, tried to bend it to my will, it has blown up in my face. So, while I have things I'd like to do and places I'd like to go, I've learned to just let things unfold as they may. I try to influence and guide it, but I don't push it anymore. I think it comes d…

I don't know. We all have outcomes we prefer. Shouldn't we take rational actions to create those outcomes? Sure, "life is what happens while you're busy making plans," but some people do accomplish what they set out to do. I want to join their ranks. On a day-to-day basis, what's the difference between "influencing and guiding it" vs. "pushing it"? No snark, just trying to understand your POV a bit better.

I'd say it's all about focusing on principles over rules, or at least being aware that the rules you apply are based on underlying principles. We tend to focus on rules, and apply those in both big and small decisions. Trying to be aware of what's behind those rules can make it easier to deviate, to improvise. Sometimes you still 'push it', but you're often more likely to realize that this thing you're 'pushing for' is a rule, not a principle, and that there are other ways to achieve the goal without blindly staring at one outcome.

I could give 'day-to-day' examples, but maybe that's not even necessary.

Re: Alone Together, Again

#82

Post by fmoralesc »

jdietrich wrote: post #37
colmvp wrote: post #3

“Divorce is always good news. I know that sounds weird, but it’s true because no good marriage has ever ended in divorce. It’s really that simple. That’s never happened – THAT would be sad. If two people were married and they were really happy and they just had a great thing, and then they got divorced, that would be really sad. But that has happened zero times. Literally zero.” Louis CK

Bullshit. I personally know of at least two marriages that ended in divorce for reasons entirely unrelated to the quality of the relationship - one or both parties had a mid-life crisis, tried to reinvent themselves to assuage their existential angst, divorced, utterly alienated their partner in the process and ended up bitterly regretting it. Deciding to divorce doesn't mean that your marriage is bad, it just means…

> ...divorced, utterly alienated their partner in the process...

You mean this had nothing to do with the quality of their relationship? Otherwise, I agree with you.

Re: Alone Together, Again

#83

Post by hilko »

o1iver wrote: post #54
SoftwareMaven wrote: post #17

I spent so much time trying to organize the life that I thought I wanted. It wasn’t the same as living. Every single time I've tried to push my life in a direction, tried to bend it to my will, it has blown up in my face. So, while I have things I'd like to do and places I'd like to go, I've learned to just let things unfold as they may. I try to influence and guide it, but I don't push it anymore. I think it comes d…

I am not exactly sure what kind of pushes you gave, but I do believe, that one should not just go with the flow. Going against the flow is what shapes you as a human being. If in doubt choose the harder option. The hard times have shaped me more as a human than the easy times. Also a certain amount of contrast is good in life. Just going with the flow seems to dull life, removing inner conflict, conflict with others,…

I'm actually not sure that's true. For me going with the flow does dull life, but it increases inner conflict and pain. Because the 'flow' is often much more based on perceived rules and on social or societal pressure.

I think 'going with the flow' can go further than just on a life scale. In my case it means making decisions that often shake things up and seem a bit silly and counter-productive. I make these decisions because usually they work out and at least keep things interesting. But within these paths of conflict/difficulty I go with the flow. Not necessarily as an all-encompassing approach to life.

Re: Alone Together, Again

#84

Post by hilko »

sown wrote: post #41
SoftwareMaven wrote: post #17

I spent so much time trying to organize the life that I thought I wanted. It wasn’t the same as living. Every single time I've tried to push my life in a direction, tried to bend it to my will, it has blown up in my face. So, while I have things I'd like to do and places I'd like to go, I've learned to just let things unfold as they may. I try to influence and guide it, but I don't push it anymore. I think it comes d…

So what happens when I let it go to the other direction too much? It seems like I can't do anything and make anything in my life happen. When I get home from work all I can do is sleep or lie down. I'm positively bored most of the time but don't know how to fix it.

Since I don't know your situation, I obviously cannot give proper informed advice. But one option is to quit and/or to move.

I've felt depressed (distinct from episodes of 'proper' depression) very often in my life. It often too much longer to get out of this because I was looking for a fix, while the fix often resulted from just doing something different, sometimes even seemingly stupid. But it always worked. Breaking patterns.

Re: Alone Together, Again

#85

Post by SoftwareMaven »

oz wrote: post #36
SoftwareMaven wrote: post #17

I spent so much time trying to organize the life that I thought I wanted. It wasn’t the same as living. Every single time I've tried to push my life in a direction, tried to bend it to my will, it has blown up in my face. So, while I have things I'd like to do and places I'd like to go, I've learned to just let things unfold as they may. I try to influence and guide it, but I don't push it anymore. I think it comes d…

I don't know. We all have outcomes we prefer. Shouldn't we take rational actions to create those outcomes? Sure, "life is what happens while you're busy making plans," but some people do accomplish what they set out to do. I want to join their ranks. On a day-to-day basis, what's the difference between "influencing and guiding it" vs. "pushing it"? No snark, just trying to understand your POV a bit better.

It's all mindset. Say AI has really struck my fancy. It's a fascinating space with a lot of interesting work going on. Let's compare forcing it and guiding it:

Forcing it: I learn everything I can about AI. I attend meetups, conferences, whatever. I begin obsessing about how little progress I'm making towards my goal. Eventually, I either give up in frustration, or I take a sub-optimal leap in that direction just so I can make some progress.

It is the frustration and the sub-optimal leaps that cause the problems. The frustration leads to self-loathing and depression; the suboptimal leaps result in me being somewhere that, ultimately, doesn't lead where I want, leading me back to frustration.

Guiding it, on the other hand, starts similarly: I learn everything I can about AI. I attend meetups, conferences, whatever. What changes is the obsessing part. Now I'm trying to enjoy the experience, the knowledge and the people. Eventually, I find that it's not what I thought it was or a place where I fit opens naturally. If its the former, there's no frustration; if its the latter, huzzah.

I don't want to sound like I have some zen capability or anything (trust me, I'm far from that!). I have to remind myself very regularly the pitfalls of pushing things because I'm a very impatient person. I also have struggled with depression, so I also have to continually remind myself that, even if I feel like I'm not making progress, I am and that the alternative, feeling like I'm making progress when I'm not really, is far worse.

Re: Alone Together, Again

#86

Post by SoftwareMaven »

o1iver wrote: post #54
SoftwareMaven wrote: post #17

I spent so much time trying to organize the life that I thought I wanted. It wasn’t the same as living. Every single time I've tried to push my life in a direction, tried to bend it to my will, it has blown up in my face. So, while I have things I'd like to do and places I'd like to go, I've learned to just let things unfold as they may. I try to influence and guide it, but I don't push it anymore. I think it comes d…

I am not exactly sure what kind of pushes you gave, but I do believe, that one should not just go with the flow. Going against the flow is what shapes you as a human being. If in doubt choose the harder option. The hard times have shaped me more as a human than the easy times. Also a certain amount of contrast is good in life. Just going with the flow seems to dull life, removing inner conflict, conflict with others,…

I agree that it is possible to get too passive, and I wouldn't advocate that. I guess it's a matter of learning what to push and what expectations to have. Honestly, what I do is rarely that different between pushing it and not pushing it. The primary difference is how I react to it.

I still hope I can get my side project to a reasonable level of completeness and people will have some interest in it. It's just that, now, my identity isn't tied up in it.

And maybe that's what it comes down to: is my identity tied up in what I'm trying to accomplish? Because if it is, and I fail, that makes me a failure.

Re: Alone Together, Again

#87

Post by SoftwareMaven »

sown wrote: post #41
SoftwareMaven wrote: post #17

I spent so much time trying to organize the life that I thought I wanted. It wasn’t the same as living. Every single time I've tried to push my life in a direction, tried to bend it to my will, it has blown up in my face. So, while I have things I'd like to do and places I'd like to go, I've learned to just let things unfold as they may. I try to influence and guide it, but I don't push it anymore. I think it comes d…

So what happens when I let it go to the other direction too much? It seems like I can't do anything and make anything in my life happen. When I get home from work all I can do is sleep or lie down. I'm positively bored most of the time but don't know how to fix it.

I'm not a doctor, but I've dealt with these before. You may be burned out, depressed, or both. While taking a good break and changing up your life can help if your burned out, it will often just mask depression.

I would encourage you to talk to a doctor and find a good psychologist who understands cognitive based therapies. The best responses to depression include both pharmacological and brain hacking (which is what CBT is). They can help you understand if you are burned out, depressed or both.

I wish you well. It's a hard spot to be in, but one you can get out of. Feel free to email me (in my profile) if I can answer any questions (or do much of anything else) for you.

Re: Alone Together, Again

#88

Post by SoftwareMaven »

younata wrote: post #48
SoftwareMaven wrote: post #17

I spent so much time trying to organize the life that I thought I wanted. It wasn’t the same as living. Every single time I've tried to push my life in a direction, tried to bend it to my will, it has blown up in my face. So, while I have things I'd like to do and places I'd like to go, I've learned to just let things unfold as they may. I try to influence and guide it, but I don't push it anymore. I think it comes d…

I disagree. For most people, it's fine and all to just go with the flow. Not me. I have an affliction that, statistically, I commit suicide if I try to go with the flow. I got damn close, too. It would've been really easy to go through with it. I didn't go through with it, and I got help. I'm now actively making my life better each day. I am pursuing the direction I want to go in life, and I am happier than I've ever…

Going with the flow doesn't mean not trying to improve myself. I think it's more about not getting my identity wrapped up in what I'm trying to do to the point that, if I don't succeed, all I can conclude is that I am a failure.

It certainly doesn't mean I don't have dreams, aspirations and goals. It doesn't mean that I didn't spend most of the day yesterday working on a side project that I hope to bootstrap. It just means that I won't pursue that bootstrapping in a way that, ultimately, is damaging to myself and my relationships with others.

It is complicated and not at all easy to write out.

Re: Alone Together, Again

#89

Post by gcv »

kamaal wrote: post #47
pdeuchler wrote: post #12

Thank you so much for posting this Alex. I'm young enough for marriage to seem distant, and my parents are still married, yet more than half of the children I grew up with had divorced parents and I have several separated family members. It's not uncommon for most of the families on a suburb block to be divorced, especially in certain areas (most of my affluent white friends had antagonistically divorced parents, mai…

Just curious to know, as somebody from India. What are leading causes for divorce in the US? I used to hear that, alimony is one reason why many women would get married to somebody rich and then divorce them. I can understand that divorces happen due to incompatibility reasons. But 50% is too high a number for that reason alone. Also I've heard marriage rates itself in the west are quite low. Never understood the log…

Let me ask a related and unpopular question: what purpose does marriage serve in today's world?

For people with religious convictions, I understand: your god(s) hate you if you have relationships not sanctioned by your religious authorities. I am specifically asking about secular people in the US and Europe, who choose to enter a contract with the government about their personal lives.

Is it taxes? It seems much easier to me to just make more money than to make "till death do us part" work.

For health insurance, domestic partnerships work closely enough. (This is a US-specific problem.)

It seems to me that most marriages occur because the wedding industry has done a phenomenal job of marketing itself. Many girls grow up dreaming about their weddings. Men, assuming that women want this, go along. With predictable results in the divorce rate.

Companionship and love have nothing to do with a piece of paper filed with the local government.

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