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Model-Based Testing for Dungeons & Dragons

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Re: Model-Based Testing for Dungeons & Dragons

#71

Post by nextlevelwizard »

pigpop wrote: post #69
nextlevelwizard wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When most of the games rules are about a thing that thing becomes the focal point. 5e also assumes pretty high amount of combat encounters per day to keep all classes in balance, if you are having less then it will make some classes just bad picks which can feel bad Personally I don’t like it when people don’t play by the rules of the game we have decided to play together, so definitely things should work as the rule…

I guess it depends if you want the game to be a grind for the next level or if you want real interactive fiction. Different people like different things.

It really just depends on do you play D&D or something else. It is perfect fine if you don’t want to play by the rules, but then you aren’t playing the game and we might as well just stop pretending and pick a better system

Re: Model-Based Testing for Dungeons & Dragons

#72

Post by anentropic »

Firfi wrote: post #47
anentropic wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fantastic, I'd been daydreaming about doing similar for a while! Do I understand correctly that the Quint code is not needed 'at runtime', that it's there for model-based testing of the XState implementation?

Right. Quint is not used in runtime and is not supposed to be. It's a strong testing layer. But there's much more to it. My bigger idea is that I would generate whatever implementation from it, hopefully, with an agentic loop - the MBT test is a natural feedback harness to leave coding overnight. So dnd-rust at some point, maybe? If someone develops a game, they would be able to generate a core logic in rust for bevy…

Yes that's exactly what I started thinking, this is great work - thank you!

Re: Model-Based Testing for Dungeons & Dragons

#74

Post by jghn »

cthalupa wrote: post #70
jghn wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a dichotomy here that I have always found amusing. To me, the older style of play felt crunchier, despite there being less of a rule focused. The most common style of play back then was more of a dungeon crawl, closer to "roll playing", low fantasy, usually lower level, murder hobos were very common, and all of that. Whereas today's game is far more complicated rules-wise by most measures yet it tends to be m…

Today's game can be just as much roll-playing, it highly depends on the group. One of the things that drove me back to B/X and ADD was the sheer number of min-max players and rise(!) of murder hobos in 5e vs. even 3e/3.5/pf1 Most of the early old-school stuff was way too deadly for players to be murder hobos or try to solve everything with combat - if you went into Caverns of Thracia at level 2 as a murder hobo you'r…

> Today's game can be just as much roll-playing, it highly depends on the group.

Yeah this is kind of my point, that I think a lot of the contemporary play style is cultural and not ruleset driven. And thus I'm skeptical that merely doing something playing 1e AD&D is going to feel exactly the same as it did 40 years ago. That said, I may be overstating how typical this is in the modern game, I haven't played in 30-ish years, my take is driven by observation purely.

And also, even back then some of the more modern improv-y play style existed, it just wasn't the norm. I remember when my main play group had a session with one member's brother & friends and there was a very clear culture mismatch from the start. They were acting, with voices and all of that. We ... did not. To each their own but combining the two didn't work.

Re: Model-Based Testing for Dungeons & Dragons

#75

Post by zzo38computer »

oceansky wrote: post #14

As someone who is trying to re-create the Pokémon system, I am running into similar issues. There many things going on a single "turn", especially with abilities that can pretty much change any of the game rules.

You are not only one trying to do it. There are others, and in other programming languages (Pokemon Showdown is one already implemented, but uses TypeScript with dependencies and I wanted to avoid those issues). What programming language did you intend to use?

I intended to do as a C library (which would then be available for other programs in C to call). I know many of the rules of Pokemon but not all of the cases, and then, knowing the data structures to make, etc. I also wanted to make the rules customizable (and to implement all generations, although perhaps only some of them will be implemented the first time and others later) and I have some ideas about that.

I would hope that some people can work on something together.

Re: Model-Based Testing for Dungeons & Dragons

#76

Post by zzo38computer »

bluefirebrand wrote: post #55
pigpop wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, tabletop RPGs should be 2/3 Role Playing and only 1/3 Game.

This is why I don't play TTRPGs much anymore. If I wanted to really get into character and roleplay my heart out I'd join an improv group... I liked the crunchy bits of TTRPGs like charting dungeons and running kingdoms and shit. Can't find many groups interested in that anymore

To me, the role playing, and the crunchy bits, as well as tactics, combat, and other stuff, are all significant and important part of TTRPG; it should not be only one of those things.

Re: Model-Based Testing for Dungeons & Dragons

#77

Post by bluefirebrand »

zzo38computer wrote: post #76
bluefirebrand wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I don't play TTRPGs much anymore. If I wanted to really get into character and roleplay my heart out I'd join an improv group... I liked the crunchy bits of TTRPGs like charting dungeons and running kingdoms and shit. Can't find many groups interested in that anymore

To me, the role playing, and the crunchy bits, as well as tactics, combat, and other stuff, are all significant and important part of TTRPG; it should not be only one of those things.

In my experience the roleplay heavy groups are very quick to houserule out any of the crunchy rules they don't like, too. So it really is the worst of both worlds for me, I don't get to engage with the game system the way I want to, and I also am expected to roleplay heavily

Re: Model-Based Testing for Dungeons & Dragons

#78

Post by oceansky »

zzo38computer wrote: post #75
oceansky wrote: post #14

As someone who is trying to re-create the Pokémon system, I am running into similar issues. There many things going on a single "turn", especially with abilities that can pretty much change any of the game rules.

You are not only one trying to do it. There are others, and in other programming languages (Pokemon Showdown is one already implemented, but uses TypeScript with dependencies and I wanted to avoid those issues). What programming language did you intend to use? I intended to do as a C library (which would then be available for other programs in C to call). I know many of the rules of Pokemon but not all of the cases,…

I am also using typescript and taking pokerogue and showdown as inspirations. Since my game is a nethack-like game, it isn't exactly the same, but I am using the mainline games move sets, formulas, abilities and trying to copy them.

I am also attempting to make it functional, the engine receives a game state and returns a new game state. I am using pure React for rendering but I plan moving it to canvas if I ever want to add more special mechanics. I am focusing mostly on functionality for now, it's very early stage but it already works.

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