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How To Become An Apprentice Developer

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Re: How To Become An Apprentice Developer

#41

Post by peteretep »

TeamMCS wrote: post #38
peteretep wrote: post #36

Purely from a hiring side, can someone sell me on the value of hiring junior developers and training them up? It feels to me like there's real potential for them to gum up the development team, it's going to take years for them to be senior (and nothing stopping them leaving when they are)... I understand people want Junior jobs to exist, as junior developers. As someone hiring, why should I hire one? Serious questio…

This is an interesting response and one I'm pondering myself. It clearly is of extreme importance to seed new developers in the industry and how should small shops shoulder their share? Young/junior developers often have a lot of spirit and enthusiasm which is injected into an existing team. They'll also tend to bring the 'latest new ideas' which while not already ideal does get the old guard thinking. If anything it…

Positive disruption was a benefit I identified; but you need very much the right junior to make this happen, and also there are drawbacks... (http://blogs.tedneward.com/2012/03/21/Unlearn+Young+Programm...)

Re: How To Become An Apprentice Developer

#42

Post by peteretep »

ninetax wrote: post #11
avolcano wrote: post #10

Gotta say, as a sophomore who's been debating dropping out college, that these junior positions exist at all is encouraging. I always thought my trajectory would be to go to my current school, transfer to a better one, get some good internships, and graduate with a CS degree. But my grades aren't where they need to be, so I probably won't be able to transfer to a good school. Honestly I've been concerned whether or n…

We are really fortunate that CS skills are in such high demand. That this is even an option is pretty amazing. However, the day may come when the market turns down and the thing that makes an employer hire the next guy and not you is a piece of paper that says he stuck it out in college. Good luck whatever you do!

Yes, but this has been the case since I barely managed to get my high-school diploma, and tumbled on to the work scene (circa 2001). If you're bright, and you can program in a language that people use, there's opportunity. And that's been the case for a long while. And once you've been programming a while, no-one really cares about your degree - or lack thereof.

Re: How To Become An Apprentice Developer

#43

Post by EnderMB »

atomical wrote: post #13
nhangen wrote: post #5

I also had struggles trying to find work as a jr dev, so eventually I gave up to start building my own software and work on the consulting side. It's strange because I see a lot of jr. guys/gals struggle to find mentorship, yet those very same sr. devs don't hesitate to poke holes in their code from afar. For example, you see a lot of jr. devs post code and projects here on HN, and they get lambasted for poor practic…

Poking holes in your code is mentorship. If you have some ego about lines of code you wrote you aren't going to be happy with a career as a developer because over time everything is slowly tweaked and rewritten. I don't know what a 'poor practice' is though. Getting something out the door is key at most places. You need to get most of it right though.

Absolutely. There are fewer harder things in software development than taking criticism over code you've lovingly crafted, but ultimately it's this criticism that makes you understand the code better.

Additionally, if you're posting code on the Internet then you're there for everybody to shoot at. It sucks sometimes, but that's how things go.

Re: How To Become An Apprentice Developer

#44

Post by wwkeyboard »

avolcano wrote: post #10

Gotta say, as a sophomore who's been debating dropping out college, that these junior positions exist at all is encouraging. I always thought my trajectory would be to go to my current school, transfer to a better one, get some good internships, and graduate with a CS degree. But my grades aren't where they need to be, so I probably won't be able to transfer to a good school. Honestly I've been concerned whether or n…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias

How many people didn't get accepted something like App Academy? One problem with self-taught education is the lack of metrics; it's hard to tell if teach-yourself is a viable path for everyone, or just a small percentage.

Re: How To Become An Apprentice Developer

#45

Post by nhangen »

EnderMB wrote: post #43
atomical wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poking holes in your code is mentorship. If you have some ego about lines of code you wrote you aren't going to be happy with a career as a developer because over time everything is slowly tweaked and rewritten. I don't know what a 'poor practice' is though. Getting something out the door is key at most places. You need to get most of it right though.

Absolutely. There are fewer harder things in software development than taking criticism over code you've lovingly crafted, but ultimately it's this criticism that makes you understand the code better. Additionally, if you're posting code on the Internet then you're there for everybody to shoot at. It sucks sometimes, but that's how things go.

There is a big difference between being cruel and being helpful. Very often I see the former. I don't post my code, so this isn't about me. It's about what I see from others.

Re: How To Become An Apprentice Developer

#46

Post by cstejerean »

pm90 wrote: post #29
batgaijin wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are a good programmer and get turned away for that reason, thank yourself for that bit of luck. I went through college, learned dittily squat when it comes to cs, and now I'm playing catch-up hardcore with js/functional programming/kernel hacking/everything. Autodidacts rule the world today, and they will only continue to become more influential. Nobody can push you harder than you can push yourself.

While I agree with your points, rejecting a company because it makes that demand isn't quite right. If (hypothetically) you have 2 equally good programmers, and the only difference between them is one has a degree and the other one doesn't, then its natural to choose the former

If you have two equally competent candidates, hire both. It's surprisingly difficult to find good programmers though, so ending up with 2 awesome candidates to choose from is unlikely.

Re: How To Become An Apprentice Developer

#47

Post by edskim »

HugoMelo wrote: post #31
ruggeri wrote: post #9

[Instructor at App Academy here] I'm really proud of Hugo; he came in to App Academy as an 18 year old kid with no coding experience, and through sheer force of will, learned enough to land a junior dev job in nine weeks. If you're interested in the course that Hugo took, check us out (appacademy.io). Students only pay us when they find a dev job after the program. Hugo's fellow students are doing great. 11/15 of our…

nicholasreed makes a good point. Let me make some stuff clear: - I paid a $500 refundable deposit by mailing them a check they never cashed. That was legit. A $3,000 deposit is silly though. - To the best of my knowledge no jobs were found from App Academy's partner companies. - I don't believe the $83k average salary thing. That said, Ned is one of the greatest mentors I've ever met, and he's radically changed my li…

Hugo! I never really announced it but I accepted an offer with Twilio to join as a mobile engineer. I only interviewed with partner companies. I was going to mention it when I got back from my trip. I think other people got offers from partner companies as well.

Re: How To Become An Apprentice Developer

#48

Post by slurgfest »

rizzom5000 wrote: post #26

There are two primary reasons this story is possible. One, we have a highly motivated student; and two, tremendous demand unfilled via traditional channels. And nothing against a 9-week code bootcamp, but even if the student invested 12 hours a day with no days off, we're talking about 756 hours of experience. Compare this to a university education at four years times 12 hours of class a week for 30 weeks and two hou…

I don't think University is a waste of time. However...

It doesn't seem completely accurate to count all the time spent at university as equivalent to the same time spent working in the trenches.

And it seems extremely harsh to say that there is no reason to hire people who didn't do CS in university, because they were "asleep at the wheel." Figuring out what you are going to do in the future is not the same skill as shipping software.

Re: How To Become An Apprentice Developer

#49

Post by slurgfest »

sddulaney wrote: post #32

I think apprenticeships in general are critical. It's good to see that others see their value. So many people feel this sense of entitlement. Nothing comes without hard work. Mentors make it easier. Apprenticeships are amazing.

As a corollary to 'nothing comes without hard work,' a company can't stock up on good engineers without hard work on the company's part, and complaints about this are also rooted in a sense of entitlement.

Re: How To Become An Apprentice Developer

#50

Post by HugoMelo »

HugoMelo wrote: post #31
ruggeri wrote: post #9

[Instructor at App Academy here] I'm really proud of Hugo; he came in to App Academy as an 18 year old kid with no coding experience, and through sheer force of will, learned enough to land a junior dev job in nine weeks. If you're interested in the course that Hugo took, check us out (appacademy.io). Students only pay us when they find a dev job after the program. Hugo's fellow students are doing great. 11/15 of our…

nicholasreed makes a good point. Let me make some stuff clear: - I paid a $500 refundable deposit by mailing them a check they never cashed. That was legit. A $3,000 deposit is silly though. - To the best of my knowledge no jobs were found from App Academy's partner companies. - I don't believe the $83k average salary thing. That said, Ned is one of the greatest mentors I've ever met, and he's radically changed my li…

[Edit] - Looks like I had some bad info. Several offers to students were from partner companies.

edskim case in point. He's off to Twilio now.

whoops ;)

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