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Many African families spend fortunes burying their dead

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Re: Many African families spend fortunes burying their dead

#91

Post by kakacik »

sillysaurusx wrote: post #17
IncreasePosts wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is more of a self inflicted wound than an intrinsic aspect of modern society.

I wish it was self inflicted. Instead, it seems to be an artifact of modern society. I posted “How to Be Alone?” exploring this issue somewhat: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47296547 690 points, 500+ comments. I’m not trying to get pity, but it would be mistaken to say that I brought it on myself. My wife didn’t bring it on me either. We simply eroded over time. But when marital bonds erode, it turns out they…

> pick two: family, friends, work

That should be always supremely easy and never contain work, unless you are maybe working in medical care or education. Given education path normally leaves a lot of free time then just the former.

I would maybe add fourth - oneself, unless one is a proper exreovert. Requires least of the time, but its most important for long term mental health.

Re: Many African families spend fortunes burying their dead

#92

Post by JumpCrisscross »

mothballed wrote: post #83
themacguffinman wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that it's pretty acceptable for you to reject family requests for money, it doesn't make you a pariah and being a pariah doesn't carry the same consequences when non-family institutions govern society. The article spends a lot of time belaboring this point: you don't have to do what your family asks you to do in developed countries. On the other hand, becoming outcast from your family in a kinship-d…

The article's description of kinship sounds a bit like family based governance and taxation. Only with say a western government their enforcers will happily imprison anyone not giving what the government ("kin") says is owed, and those who resist being violently dragged jailed typically find a fate even worse. The western version then of being a pariah for not paying up is violence rather than ostracization and shame…

> with say a western government their enforcers will happily imprison anyone not giving what the government ("kin") says is owed

Big difference between taxation and patronage is when the rules are known. You generally know ex ante what you should owe in taxes. With patronage, if you have a windfall, the rules adjust to require you give it away.

Re: Many African families spend fortunes burying their dead

#93

Post by komali2 »

stavros wrote: post #80
forthwall wrote: post #31

This article seems to establish that kinship leads to the failure of wage growth and ultimately wealth, people will hide their wages because people will ask for money. This seems like the issue rather is is that wealth accumulation in sub-saharan africa is limited to a small subset of population, I don't think this wealth tax by family members exists when you have a larger group of individuals making more money. You…

Sure, wealth accumulation is limited to a subset of the population there, but this is true everywhere. The reasoning error here is thinking in terms of absolute incomes across the group, rather than the relative incomes of the members. Yes, people in the US make more money, on average, than the average Ghanaian, but the relative incomes of a family are just as disparate as those of Ghanaians. If someone in the US get…

It seems this only matters in economic systems with compound interest, like capitalism.

In gift economies, all these distinctions are meaningless. The bounty of a funeral would be a direct representation of the deceased's popularity (likely established through their generosity) as well as their family's ability to convice people to e.g. spend time making s beautiful coffin, bring food, play music.

Re: Many African families spend fortunes burying their dead

#94

Post by [deleted] »

mothballed wrote: post #83
themacguffinman wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that it's pretty acceptable for you to reject family requests for money, it doesn't make you a pariah and being a pariah doesn't carry the same consequences when non-family institutions govern society. The article spends a lot of time belaboring this point: you don't have to do what your family asks you to do in developed countries. On the other hand, becoming outcast from your family in a kinship-d…

The article's description of kinship sounds a bit like family based governance and taxation. Only with say a western government their enforcers will happily imprison anyone not giving what the government ("kin") says is owed, and those who resist being violently dragged jailed typically find a fate even worse. The western version then of being a pariah for not paying up is violence rather than ostracization and shame…

[deleted]

Re: Many African families spend fortunes burying their dead

#95

Post by dahart »

thelock85 wrote: post #15

It’s interesting how this is framed as a “bad deal” (being apart of a kinship society) without taking time to breakdown the cost of being on your own in Ghanaian society, especially when healthcare, credit harm and other emergencies are broadly unaffordable in individualist, capitalist American society.

You got some strangely negative reactions, but I agree; the article has not accounted for the safety net effect of a kinship society. It’s a glass half empty view, and there is a glass half full view too. The article is also not considering the country’s economics or the government or geopolitcal history, which others here are pointing out. It’s an interesting thought, but seems premature (and a bit sad) to jump to the conclusion that tight bonds are the cause of poverty, when there are clearly more forces involved.

Re: Many African families spend fortunes burying their dead

#96

Post by stavros »

komali2 wrote: post #93
stavros wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, wealth accumulation is limited to a subset of the population there, but this is true everywhere. The reasoning error here is thinking in terms of absolute incomes across the group, rather than the relative incomes of the members. Yes, people in the US make more money, on average, than the average Ghanaian, but the relative incomes of a family are just as disparate as those of Ghanaians. If someone in the US get…

It seems this only matters in economic systems with compound interest, like capitalism. In gift economies, all these distinctions are meaningless. The bounty of a funeral would be a direct representation of the deceased's popularity (likely established through their generosity) as well as their family's ability to convice people to e.g. spend time making s beautiful coffin, bring food, play music.

The economies mentioned in the article are capitalist economies.

Re: Many African families spend fortunes burying their dead

#97

Post by decimalenough »

kenferry wrote: post #46

The factual material about funeral spending costs is very interesting, but when it gets into "Kinship societies are wealth-destroying societies" it seems rather… unsupported? That's a sweeping statement that actually requires understanding the whole picture, and the whole picture is not being presented. Is there reason to think the author truly has all the context to make these claims?

This is not a novel observation, eg Kapuscinski's "In the Shadow of the Sun" describes the same phenomenon: it's very difficult to get ahead because anything above bare subsistence is immediately siphoned off by your kin.

Re: Many African families spend fortunes burying their dead

#98

Post by JumpCrisscross »

nntwozz wrote: post #79
klooney wrote: post #2

> Modernity is about not doing what your family says The flip side is that rich and modern people feel lonely and sad that they don't have strong social bonds.

If you're lonely when you're alone, you're in bad company. — Jean-Paul Sartre

Loneliness and aloneness are almost separate phenomenon. I've felt my loneliest in the middle of Manhattan and completely fulfilled when on a solo hike in the Grand Tetons.

Re: Many African families spend fortunes burying their dead

#99

Post by wewtyflakes »

I found a lot of the points being made against kinship networks are also easily made against traditional wealth-oriented cultures.

"The kinship network has a strong interest in preventing any of its members from becoming prosperous enough to no longer need it"

Seems like the exact monetary pressures someone from the west would feel, except it comes from bosses rather than family. Minimum wage needing to exist as a thing is a clear example of that.

Re: Many African families spend fortunes burying their dead

#100

Post by margalabargala »

bobanrocky wrote: post #42
klooney wrote: post #2

> Modernity is about not doing what your family says The flip side is that rich and modern people feel lonely and sad that they don't have strong social bonds.

Ok, so better to be poor and backward, eh ?

Hard to say. There are so many options that aren't just those two.
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