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Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

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Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#321

Post by pj_mukh »

culi wrote: post #317
pj_mukh wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a recipe for creating dead retiree states. Just NIMBY everything, NIMBY the power sources[1] [2], then complain about a lack of power so NIMBY any type of new industrial . Now do this for housing, new sources of water anything a person younger than 40 would need and you basically get a state full of retirees..and oh would you look at that! [3]. Now the question is, why wouldn't all states eventually do this w…

It's the opposite of NIMBY. It's smart thoughtful policy and it is NOT a simple ban. Nobody bothers to read passed the title but the main piece of this legislation is the creation of the Maine Data Center Coordination Council. Alongside it is a temporary (until Nov 2027) moratorium on data centers over 20 megawatts. This seems to be in place so they could establish a proper legal and environmental framework for build…

Appointing a council of elders who will think through every imagined horror before approving a project (or a “framework”) is basically the textbook definition of NIMBY-ism.

Every NIMBY thinks they’re being optimally thoughtful (tm), except the answer is always the same, two years of environment studies, followed by a loud resounding “No”.

Why would they approve anything? They have no incentive to.

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#322

Post by culi »

pj_mukh wrote: post #321
culi wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the opposite of NIMBY. It's smart thoughtful policy and it is NOT a simple ban. Nobody bothers to read passed the title but the main piece of this legislation is the creation of the Maine Data Center Coordination Council. Alongside it is a temporary (until Nov 2027) moratorium on data centers over 20 megawatts. This seems to be in place so they could establish a proper legal and environmental framework for build…

Appointing a council of elders who will think through every imagined horror before approving a project (or a “framework”) is basically the textbook definition of NIMBY-ism. Every NIMBY thinks they’re being optimally thoughtful (tm), except the answer is always the same, two years of environment studies, followed by a loud resounding “No”. Why would they approve anything? They have no incentive to.

Do you think the EPA is "a council of elders"?

C'mon. Be reasonable for a second. Or at the very least actually read past the title before commenting.

This is actively seeking to reduce NIMBYism

> As part of the moratorium, Maine’s Data Center Coordination Council would study and oversee the environmental impact and electricity bill increases datacenters often bring to local residents and “consider data-sharing requirements and processes for proposed datacenters.”

https://www.404media.co/maine-datacenter-construction-bill-l...

I think you're much more likely to see actual populist NIMBYism if this bill was not passed

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#323

Post by nradov »

pj_mukh wrote: post #289
unclad5968 wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is so ignorant it hurts. The same exact proposition was voted down in New Hampshire years earlier, because the transmission line goes straight through natural forests, to Massachusetts, and has little to do with the state other than chopping down a bunch of trees. Neither Maine nor New Hampshire have an extra $1 billion to waste on enhancing the grid mainly for the benefit of southern New England states. Neither…

"Neither Maine nor New Hampshire voters are "bozos" for voting it down. " I mean yes, that is how the Tragedy of the Commons works. Everyone individually makes the optimal decision for themselves but in effect you've basically hamstrung green sources of energy around the country by being very smart for your own state. The question is, should you be allowed to this.

Maybe Massachusetts should have offered Maine some incentive for running the power line through their territory. States make agreements like that all the time.

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#324

Post by nmbrskeptix »

pj_mukh wrote: post #307
piker wrote: post #3

Such a law illustrates the beauty of federalism. Texas and other states can have them if they want them! Maine has not nearly as much space and much more natural beauty to protect [per square mile], so it can and maybe should have a different set of rules. That's cool.

This is a recipe for creating dead retiree states. Just NIMBY everything, NIMBY the power sources[1] [2], then complain about a lack of power so NIMBY any type of new industrial . Now do this for housing, new sources of water anything a person younger than 40 would need and you basically get a state full of retirees..and oh would you look at that! [3]. Now the question is, why wouldn't all states eventually do this w…

[dead]

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#325

Post by kube-system »

strongpigeon wrote: post #40
dclowd9901 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For people who don't support this kind of ban, I'd ask: What's the alternative? _Requiring_ that states house data centers?

Taxing them to account for the externalities they bring.

Usually that's a good approach but it doesn't work as well for industries that are in boom-bust cycles or have externalities which persist longer than the lifetime of the company that caused it -- because you either end up in a situation where you have to tax it all up-front, or end up in a situation where companies disappear and leave you to clean up their mess.

This is notoriously problematic with oil and gas wells. When it's profitable, they're maintained and you get tax revenue. When they're not profitable, the company might just disappear and you're left with an abandoned uncapped well spewing pollution, generating zero tax revenue.

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#326

Post by leptons »

lizknope wrote: post #257
bsimpson wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from Nevada, another state that people presume is all desert. (Really, it's all mountains.) The only part of Texas I've driven is between Austin and S Antonio. It was perhaps the least-beautiful wilderness I've driven through. It really did just feel like desert and billboards - like if Walmart was a highway. But I also presume Texas marketing itself as a less-regulated alternative (e.g. to California) is why it'…

Most people never bother to look at a map. It takes 2 seconds to look at google satellite view of the area and see lots of desert with strips of green https://maps.app.goo.gl/R8HuWBi66548Jq5BA Of course you already know this but for everyone else it is called the Basin and Range province. You have desert areas and then a mountain range with much higher elevation with cooler temperatures and more precipitation which m…

> and green in color

Okay, we'll give Nevada a participation award for "green in color". Maine wins the "green in color" category by a lot. It's orders of magnitude greener.

"Green" isn't everything though. Nevada has a lot of brown going for it!

Oh, Maine also has a tidal coastline of 3478 miles, but Nevada is landlocked. Nevada does have a couple of big lakes though.

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#327

Post by eudamoniac »

pj_mukh wrote: post #307
piker wrote: post #3

Such a law illustrates the beauty of federalism. Texas and other states can have them if they want them! Maine has not nearly as much space and much more natural beauty to protect [per square mile], so it can and maybe should have a different set of rules. That's cool.

This is a recipe for creating dead retiree states. Just NIMBY everything, NIMBY the power sources[1] [2], then complain about a lack of power so NIMBY any type of new industrial . Now do this for housing, new sources of water anything a person younger than 40 would need and you basically get a state full of retirees..and oh would you look at that! [3]. Now the question is, why wouldn't all states eventually do this w…

Is your argument that we should ignore the will of the people? Because this is what the people of Maine want. Why exactly should Maine be forced to have data centers in it when its citizens don't want that?

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#328

Post by sidewndr46 »

bsimpson wrote: post #89
seniorThrowaway wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't know why people think Texas doesn't have natural beauty. It's a huge state.

I'm from Nevada, another state that people presume is all desert. (Really, it's all mountains.) The only part of Texas I've driven is between Austin and S Antonio. It was perhaps the least-beautiful wilderness I've driven through. It really did just feel like desert and billboards - like if Walmart was a highway. But I also presume Texas marketing itself as a less-regulated alternative (e.g. to California) is why it'…

Yeah, you drove through part of the Texas Triangle. Not really an area I would go to for sights

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#329

Post by DrewADesign »

DrewADesign wrote: post #107
slabity wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> modern factories are often highly automated and also don't provide too many local jobs. The factories in Maine employ thousands of people. Bath Iron Works alone has over 7k employees. The Lewiston datacenter that was planned to be built was expected to employ less than 30.

Bingo. Data centers are a net negative wherever they are. Giant, employ far fewer people than a grocery store after they’re built, crank up electricity costs, use tons of water, air pollution if it’s self-powered, noise pollution (it’s really worth watching Benn Jordan’s video on infrasound,) ugly… the only local entities that win are the landowner and the municipality that collects taxes on them. Though I’ve seen so…

This thread is obviously being brigaded. Wiped out like 30 upvotes on one comment in no time. If you need to silence people talking about your company or favorite toy, maybe you should re-examine your life choices. Pathetic. Is there some polymarket nonsense going on here?

Re: Maine is about to become the first state to ban major new data centers

#330

Post by simoncion »

pj_mukh wrote: post #289
unclad5968 wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is so ignorant it hurts. The same exact proposition was voted down in New Hampshire years earlier, because the transmission line goes straight through natural forests, to Massachusetts, and has little to do with the state other than chopping down a bunch of trees. Neither Maine nor New Hampshire have an extra $1 billion to waste on enhancing the grid mainly for the benefit of southern New England states. Neither…

"Neither Maine nor New Hampshire voters are "bozos" for voting it down. " I mean yes, that is how the Tragedy of the Commons works. Everyone individually makes the optimal decision for themselves but in effect you've basically hamstrung green sources of energy around the country by being very smart for your own state. The question is, should you be allowed to this.

> in effect you've basically hamstrung green sources of energy around the country by being very smart for your own state.

> The question is, should you be allowed to this.

"...you've basically hamstrung green sources of energy"?

Well, after we stop growing corn to feed exclusively to cars and start using solar panels deployed on that land to harvest electricity for cars and houses and everything else that runs on electricity [0], if we're still short on power we can have the discussion you're itching to have.

[0] The immediately relevant discussion starts here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtQ9nt2ZeGM&t=1930s> and runs through to about 38:29, but the entire video is very, very well worth watching. If you intend to watch more of the video after ~38:29, I very strongly recommend that you start from the beginning.

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