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Top laptops to use with FreeBSD

freebsdfoundation.github.io

151–160 of 206 posts

Re: Top laptops to use with FreeBSD

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a cheap, common USB wifi dongle that works? In the old days I kept a couple Realtek USB adapters around that would almost always work out of the box or with ndiswrapper

No need to get a USB dongle. You can use PCI passthrough to a Linux VM that has the Wifi driver. See my comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47704816

I'd like to know more about what it takes to turn on PCI pass through for laptop hardware. On desktops and servers it's typically the IOMMU setting in the BIOS. Is that also commonly available on laptops?

Re: Top laptops to use with FreeBSD

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, compare to https://ubuntu.com/certified/laptops it is. Years ago, there was a project combining Debian with the kernel from FreeBSD. That never made sense to me and the project seems to have died meanwhile. More sensible, IMHO, might be to bolt the FreeBSD user space unto the Linux kernel. That way one would get fairly broad and current hardware support and could still enjoy a classic Unix look&feel and stable…

IMHO the biggest advantage that Debian/kFreeBSD would have had would be first-class ZFS support. You can use ZFS with Debian today, but the license problem means it only gets supported through DKMS, which is a pain; a FreeBSD-based Debian could ship binary packages for ZFS that just worked out of the box.

Considering the amount of Linux distros based on Debian, it is truly a shame that Debian/kFreeBSD stagnated. We could have had Proxmox/kFreeBSD with support for ZFS Boot environments! The evolution of FreeNAS/TrueNAS demonstrates things have been going in the opposite direction.

Re: Top laptops to use with FreeBSD

#153

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But docker! I've been using jails/etc and the pattern with way I setup and configure my FreeBSD servers hasn't significantly changed in 20 years.

>But docker Maybe one day! One of the things that has changed in the past 20 years with FreeBSD is the addition of bhyve. Virtualization on FreeBSD was not great prior to bhyve. Because FreeBSD waited to implement it, they ended up with an arguably more modern hypervisor versus what Linux had at the time. Maybe history will repeat when it comes to application containers / docker images. Podman came 5 years after Dock…

Wow, searched this thread for docker hoping to realize I was behind the times and thinking surely it must work by now. It's so crazy that the BSDs have a reputation for stable, implying sysadmins and servers, then it won't support the one thing that every server needs. VMs running linux is the preferred path of least resistance then? Honestly you'd have to work hard to find a better way to alienate your target audience.

Re: Top laptops to use with FreeBSD

#154
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glad to see this list, will keep an eye on it ! Now to be fair, in a few ways I think it is ahead. Now if you said "catch up to Linux in hardware support" I would fully agree. Last I heard, its VM (swap/memory) processes is still better, but seems many Linux people avoid swap space these days. FWIW, I always have swap on any system that allows it. And Jails, IMO nothing on Linux comes close to how good FreeBSD Jails…

Incus is pretty damn good to be fair. You can mix and match VMs and containers, the terraform provider "just works", the setup is fast and easy, it plays well with ZFS. Now I wouldn't be surprised if it still lags jails (or Illumos Zones) in robustness or some capabilities but I'm a happy user of them now.

I use IncusOS when I need the Linux kernel for some specific hardware like the latest graphics or some AI accelerator. FreeBSD for when none of those things are necessary.

Re: Top laptops to use with FreeBSD

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think of it more in the reverse, the choice being removed is the hardware you can use. It has been the case from the dawn of computing that you start from a usecase (which correlates to software, which maps to an operating system) and then look at your options for hardware. The more specific your usecase, the more specific your software, which correlates to a specific choice of hardware. There is no, and can be no,…

> Now it can be better or worse, and right now it's never been better. There was a time when your language, your shell and your operating system were specific to the exact model of comput No, it is not. There was a small period of time between the 90s and the 2010s where you could grab almost every 386 OS and have your hardware mostly decently run for it, and if not, drivers would be easily written from manufacturer…

> There was a small period of time between the 90s and the 2010s where you could grab almost every 386 OS and have your hardware mostly decently run for it

And prior to that, you could grab every OS running on IBM clones and not have to worry about graphics drivers at all, because graphics acceleration wasn't a thing. The era you refer to had already introduced software contingency on hardware within x86. This disparity was further compounded in the mid-2010s as GPUs exploded in complexity and their drivers screamed into tens of millions of lines of code, eclipsing kernels themselves. This is not distinguishable from the introduction of graphics drivers in any generalized manner. They were driven by the same process.

An important thing I want to point out as well; you're doing a lot of heavy lifting by limiting the pool to x86 computers, which is already giving up and admitting to a very strong restriction of hardware choice. Don't take that as pedantry, it's a very well hidden assumption that you've accidentally overlooked, or in the case that you think it's irrelevant, I'm letting you know that I don't consider it irrelevant in the slightest. When I think of computers, I'm not just thinking of x86 PCs. In the 90s I'm thinking of SGI workstations, Acorns, Amiga, Macs. I'm thinking of mainframes and supercomputers and everything else.

> This is the wrong logic, because operating systems become esoteric since they can't support the hardware

On the contrary, I assure you that this logic rests on faulty premises. As a general principle it's clearly false since most operating systems (which are long forgotten) predate it by decades, and in the specific context of Linux winning over FreeBSD, it's still not applicable as that happened smack dab in this era you describe.

> You may _think_ you have no reason to be sad if you're a user of Windows or Linux, but you have plenty anyway.

I'm a user of Linux, FreeBSD and 9Front. I just don't (and never have) bought hardware at random. You can reason your way into sadness any which way, but rationalization isn't always meaningfully justified. I just don't find it sad that my second desktop can't have an RX 9000 whatever in it. Where's the cut off line for that? Why not be sad that I can't jam a Fujitsu ARM processor into a PCIE slot as another type of satellite processor? The incompatibility is of the same effect, but I don't see you lamenting or even considering the latter, as though mounting a processor to a PCB is somehow fundamentally less possible than writing a modern graphics driver.

Re: Top laptops to use with FreeBSD

#156

So can anyone give me a short explanation on why someone would use freeBSD over linux? I do run it technically, on my router (OPNSense), but that's not a personal computer, like a desktop or laptop. What are the advantages to running FreeBSD?

It's different than Linux, and mainstream enough to be actively developed and used in production. For a hobbyist, that is useful in itself.

It's a pretty rock-solid system, from my memory of the 2000s.

BSDs in general are tightly integrated between kernel and userland tools. FreeBSD has a lot of modern concepts built in that Linux also has, such as Jails and bhyve VM hosting.

FreeBSD has ZFS has a first-class citizen and in my sysadmin opinion, ZFS is one of the best filesystems ever created. While others dunk on BSD for "catching up to Linux" on certain features, BSD equivalents seem to be really well architected. ZFS is one place where Linux (btrfs) is only beginning to catch up. I just learned about bectl (Boot Environment Ctl) that makes snapshotting and rolling back the system partition of installs really easy, and ZFS-on-root is critical to that tool.

For many, having the simple RC init system is a boon over systemd. Services that need started up at boot are defined in /etc/rc.conf, as well as networking and other core services. Editing rc.conf can be done manually or with the sysrc tool.

Re: Top laptops to use with FreeBSD

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's crazy how much negativity there is in comment threads like this I think it's because this chart continues a trend I've noticed with BSD zealots. Namely, there's some sort of reality distortion effect at play. Consider that there are obvious bullshit scores on TFA, like giving a laptop 9/10 when the fucking wifi doesn't work. In reality, this should be 5/10 or arguably 0/10. After all, what use is a laptop witho…

> OpenBSD zealots claiming it's 110% secure because trust me bro Or possibly because it has a good track record. If you'd like to point at actual vulnerabilities go ahead.

>Or possibly because it has a good track record.

"Only two remote code execution vulns in the default install" isn't saying much, because the default install has essentially no functionality. Similarly, RCE is not the only kind of vuln.

Let's just say it is not the mainstream consensus that OpenBSD is meaningfully more secure than an up-to-date linux. This may have been true in 1995, but it's generally acknowledged by people who know what they're talking about that OpenBSD's reputation for security is overstated.

Re: Top laptops to use with FreeBSD

#158
post #26

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From the link: "Note: The inbuilt WiFi chip is not natively supported by FreeBSD, so you will need to (temporarily) use a USB WiFi or Ethernet dongle, or (as I will explain) copy some files from a different system to the Macbook. You could also just transplant a different chip into the system." You say "works perfectly". I do not think it means what you think it means. To be fair, Linux also has trouble with the Broa…

> Broadcom Here's the real problem. It's sad how a company that spawned the raspberry pi in earlier times got so evil so quickly.

RaspberryPi Foundation spawned the raspberry pi and used a Broadcom SOC.

Re: Top laptops to use with FreeBSD

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a few reasons: 1. I subjectively just like it better. Things like dtrace, jails, the init system, just click for me. 2. I think it's good to not support a Linux mono-culture. Yes, there is Windows and macOS, but in terms of open source OS's, I think it's good to have more than one choice and so for any rough edges in FreeBSD, I'm willing to deal with them to support that goal. 3. I don't think you'll find any…

CUDA gets into an area that I wouldn't use it for. My local LLM machine is running Void linux.

Yes; linux is generally supported better than freebsd. CUDA and Docker work out of the box on linux. Linux has better graphics drivers and steam support. Opensource software (libraries, tools) are much more likely to be tested & work properly on linux. I've also run into several rust crates which don't build on freebsd - particularly crates which depend on C code.

But the comment you're replying to said there weren't many good technical reasons to prefer freebsd over linux. I think that's broadly true.

I still really like freebsd though. Unlike linux, one community is responsible for the kernel and userspace. That makes the whole OS feel much more cohesive. You don't have to worry about supporting 18 different distributions, which all do their own thing.

Re: Top laptops to use with FreeBSD

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Nothing wrong with running your network interface in a VM. There are reasons for doing so even if drivers aren't an issue. Qubes OS does this, for instance, for security reasons.

no matter how it's implemented, it must not be a user-requiring (or even user-facing) task

Why not? FreeBSD has never been intended as a batteries included, everything "just works" out of the box OS. It's meant to have a bare minimum install and let the user choose how things are set up. You can disagree with that philosophy, but that's not an indictment of FreeBSD. Just go use something that aligns better with your preferences.
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