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Top laptops to use with FreeBSD

freebsdfoundation.github.io

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Re: Top laptops to use with FreeBSD

#71

Post by AshamedCaptain »

craftkiller wrote: post #70
AshamedCaptain wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is sad is that even though Linux now has hardware support that is miles ahead of Windows, we've exchanged one problem with another, because nowadays most of the hardware I see is only supported on Linux and nothing else. Even on PCs, latest generation AMD graphics cards (already >1yr old) are not supported in _anything_ other than Linux (and Windows). This is just sad.

FreeBSD uses a compatibility layer to run the Linux graphics drivers, though it lags behind Linux. So if FreeBSD currently does not support the graphics cards, it will soon. It looks like they are currently porting over 6.11: https://github.com/FreeBSDFoundation/proj-laptop/issues/41

It is the _only_ OSS operating system that supports AMD cards from this decade, and it does so by having to emulate the Linux kernel API, and yet _still_ it lags years behind Linux itself. I've chosen this example for a reason -- this is exactly what I'm sad about.

Re: Top laptops to use with FreeBSD

#72

Post by asveikau »

stackghost wrote: post #58
asveikau wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mostly I'm just tired of people claiming BSD is this amazing new thing I don't think I've heard anybody claim BSD is new. > Netflix, and other FAANGs, except those corps don't contribute enough back because of the license I believe Netflix has upstreamed a lot to FreeBSD. They don't do it because the license compels them, they do it because upstreaming your changes makes maintenance easier. > If my laptop's wifi di…

>I'm going to guess with this rant that you weren't using Linux in the olden days, because that's what it was like. I've been using Linux and BSD in one form or another since 2003, and I definitely used wpa_supplicant on the command line to connect my Thinkpad to WiFi. And you're right, it did suck. It was not a 9/10 experience by a long shot.

Do you remember ndiswrapper?

FreeBSD actually has a similar thing, you can run Linux wifi drivers inside a VM and pass through the adapter. There's a port called wifibox that does this.

You can even forward the Unix domain socket for wpa-supplicant from the guest to host, so all the normal tools that talk to wifi cards via that socket work transparently.

Re: Top laptops to use with FreeBSD

#73

Post by Xmd5a »

supliminal wrote: post #65

Yeah you run into this head on trying to use BSD. It’s too much glue and compat work. By the end of it you no longer have a coherent system, you’re back to Linux. I use FBSD on an old-ish Lenovo W540 without too many hiccups. No, it’s not for everyone and never was. I wouldn’t suggest to anyone to run a BSD as a daily driver, or at all, unless they have a good reason to. Once you cross that line you need to know what…

> Once you cross that line you need to know what and why.

This is counterbalanced by the fact there is often one straightforward solution to every problem you run into, and those have been abundantly discussed online. Written as someone who just gave it a try.

Re: Top laptops to use with FreeBSD

#74

Post by cosmic_cheese »

stackghost wrote: post #16
olivierestsage wrote: post #12

It's crazy how much negativity there is in comment threads like this. I would get it if FreeBSD was a product you paid for, or someone was evangelizing about how you're missing out if you don't get the FreeBSD laptop experience, or something. As someone who liked FreeBSD in the past and curious to check it out again, I'm glad to have this handy list.

>It's crazy how much negativity there is in comment threads like this I think it's because this chart continues a trend I've noticed with BSD zealots. Namely, there's some sort of reality distortion effect at play. Consider that there are obvious bullshit scores on TFA, like giving a laptop 9/10 when the fucking wifi doesn't work. In reality, this should be 5/10 or arguably 0/10. After all, what use is a laptop witho…

I would argue that much of the mentioned zealotry is a sort of kneejerk response to cult-like behavior from some Linux adherents. It’s mostly defensive; these people want continued variety in the FOSS desktop space and feel that’s threatened by Linux.

Re: Top laptops to use with FreeBSD

#75

Post by [deleted] »

asveikau wrote: post #72
stackghost wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm going to guess with this rant that you weren't using Linux in the olden days, because that's what it was like. I've been using Linux and BSD in one form or another since 2003, and I definitely used wpa_supplicant on the command line to connect my Thinkpad to WiFi. And you're right, it did suck. It was not a 9/10 experience by a long shot.

Do you remember ndiswrapper? FreeBSD actually has a similar thing, you can run Linux wifi drivers inside a VM and pass through the adapter. There's a port called wifibox that does this. You can even forward the Unix domain socket for wpa-supplicant from the guest to host, so all the normal tools that talk to wifi cards via that socket work transparently.

[deleted]

Re: Top laptops to use with FreeBSD

#76

Post by 0x457 »

AshamedCaptain wrote: post #71
craftkiller wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FreeBSD uses a compatibility layer to run the Linux graphics drivers, though it lags behind Linux. So if FreeBSD currently does not support the graphics cards, it will soon. It looks like they are currently porting over 6.11: https://github.com/FreeBSDFoundation/proj-laptop/issues/41

It is the _only_ OSS operating system that supports AMD cards from this decade, and it does so by having to emulate the Linux kernel API, and yet _still_ it lags years behind Linux itself. I've chosen this example for a reason -- this is exactly what I'm sad about.

That and WiFi being stuck at 802.11g is what made me switch. It was a very sad day for me when I uninstalled FreeBSD from all of non-server machines.

Re: Top laptops to use with FreeBSD

#77

Post by realusername »

Gud wrote: post #66
wolvoleo wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not negative about it at all. I love it. It's not as polished as linux obviously, especially for desktop usage but the maintainers are very much on the ball (and they do a lot of work to get things to compile and work, there's a lot of linuxisms they have to work around).

Why is that “obviously “? I find Linux to be a broken mess. FWIW I use them both, FreeBSD and Arch , but let’s not pretend the layers of crap tacked onto the Linux kernel is some pinnacle of computing.

While I like the simplicity from FreeBSD, this simplicity also comes specifically because there's less contributions.

I doubt anything can get the scale of Linux and not have some mess.

Re: Top laptops to use with FreeBSD

#78

Post by guzfip »

PunchyHamster wrote: post #5

> 9/10 > half of networking doesnt work, and it's the more important one for laptop(wifi) I think they need to revise the scoring

FreeBSD WiFi is certainly fun.

Some years ago, I was workig with FreeBSD on an old laptop. The laptop had a wireless adapter that ostensible should be supported, but was not.

After some digging, I realized the driver was just missing some PCIe device identifiers. I added them to driver and bam my WiFi is working without issue.

I tried to submit a bug report and patch, and it got positive feedback at first any changes even got committed. But then I learned why it’s better to not even try.

Apparently this was a known issue, but only in the heads of the FreeBSD wireless developers. They had their reasons for not adding the device, but the reasons did not appear to be documented in mailing lists or docs until my thread. At that point I realized it’s not worth it to try and contribute to such large projects as I just lack the decades of institutional knowledge of the system.

Anyway, I’m not sure it ever got released. I believe there’s an umbrella bug somewhere left after the version my patch supported went out of support.

Re: Top laptops to use with FreeBSD

#79

Post by yabones »

fullstop wrote: post #15
PunchyHamster wrote: post #5

> 9/10 > half of networking doesnt work, and it's the more important one for laptop(wifi) I think they need to revise the scoring

It seems like the best way to get WiFi working in FreeBSD is to run Linux in bhyve and tunnel your connections through there.

That kind of seems crazy to me, considering OpenBSD has worked perfectly fine with every wifi capable device I've tested it on. Granted, most of them were older machines.

Is this just an artifact of FreeBSD primarily focusing on server hardware rather than consumer/end-user stuff?

Re: Top laptops to use with FreeBSD

#80

Post by wpm »

yabones wrote: post #79
fullstop wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like the best way to get WiFi working in FreeBSD is to run Linux in bhyve and tunnel your connections through there.

That kind of seems crazy to me, considering OpenBSD has worked perfectly fine with every wifi capable device I've tested it on. Granted, most of them were older machines. Is this just an artifact of FreeBSD primarily focusing on server hardware rather than consumer/end-user stuff?

Basically no one supports Broadcom SoftMAC WiFi cards very well, but OpenBSD just doesn't. I have a 2015 MacBook Air with a BCM4350 where the recommended fix is to go buy a FullMAC card from a similar vintage MacBook Pro and just cope with the fact that the card barely fits in the case and can't be secured properly.
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