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Škoda DuoBell: A bicycle bell that penetrates noise-cancelling headphones

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Re: Škoda DuoBell: A bicycle bell that penetrates noise-cancelling headphones

#161

Post by 0x3f »

i_am_proteus wrote: post #146
0x3f wrote: post #116

Do horns and bells really prevent accidents? In order for e.g. a horn to work you need enough time that the driver processes the situation and decides the horn will communicate something AND enough time for the pedestrian or whatever to process that and react to it. Generally it's a lot easier just to press the brake, and more importantly be travelling at a speed and in a manner where the brake is sufficient. Structu…

Bicycle bells are mostly for warning pedestrians when approaching from behind and passing on shared-use trails. I ride on shared infrastructure and cannot afford to build new infrastructure when my town will not. Not warning a pedestrian when approaching from behind introduces the possibility of collision if the pedestrian makes a sudden change in his walking course. I typically use this etiquette: Passing a single p…

Right it has a wider non-emergency comms purpose, I do this too. But I wouldn't do it and assume they've heard or understood, and so overtake too fast on that assumption. The overtake should be safe regardless.

Re: Škoda DuoBell: A bicycle bell that penetrates noise-cancelling headphones

#162

Post by [deleted] »

eigenspace wrote: post #126
0x3f wrote: post #116

Do horns and bells really prevent accidents? In order for e.g. a horn to work you need enough time that the driver processes the situation and decides the horn will communicate something AND enough time for the pedestrian or whatever to process that and react to it. Generally it's a lot easier just to press the brake, and more importantly be travelling at a speed and in a manner where the brake is sufficient. Structu…

A horn or bell is mostly for telling other people "hey I'm here, stay out of my way and dont suddenly cross into my path" My opinion as a cyclist is that I should basically only be using my bell on pedestrians when the pedestrians are wandering onto the bike lane. If im cycling through a shared space, I find it extremely rude to ring the bell, because it feels like I'm telling people to get out of my way, but they ha…

[deleted]

Re: Škoda DuoBell: A bicycle bell that penetrates noise-cancelling headphones

#164

Post by lxgr »

Phemist wrote: post #120
joe_mamba wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dislike the smug condescending tone of your comment. Not everyone lives in the "cycle utopia" Netherlands. For some of those that don't live there, this could be a game changer and life saver since its easier to buy a bell than wait for your city to build you segregated cycle lanes. Personally, I see no use for this bell since in Austria bicycles share the road space with cars, trucks and trams rather than pedestri…

I don't mean to disagree that there are situations where this is useful. I'm just trying to offer the perspective from a situation where the root cause as I see it has been fixed (to a high degree). The OP seemed to suggest that people wearing ANC headgear should stop doing so, but both the bell and the ANC-wearing pedestrians are a non-issue in my lived experience. It would be a shame if these "cyclist-pedestrian AN…

These things take both time and massive political will.

As somebody living in a city that's quite bike friendly, all things concerned, but still not close to Dutch or Danish levels of biking safety, I'll take any "technical solutions that try to solve social/political problems" I can get to make my commute safer.

Also, anything that makes biking feel safer will make more people try commuting by bike, which in turn increases the political will to change traffic laws and space use. Nothing exists in a vacuum.

Re: Škoda DuoBell: A bicycle bell that penetrates noise-cancelling headphones

#165

Post by 0x3f »

lxgr wrote: post #139
0x3f wrote: post #116

Do horns and bells really prevent accidents? In order for e.g. a horn to work you need enough time that the driver processes the situation and decides the horn will communicate something AND enough time for the pedestrian or whatever to process that and react to it. Generally it's a lot easier just to press the brake, and more importantly be travelling at a speed and in a manner where the brake is sufficient. Structu…

> Do horns and bells really prevent accidents? They absolutely do, for indirect reasons: > Generally it's a lot easier just to press the brake Maybe easier, but it hardly seems fair, nor realistic. With a bit of experience, you can tell when pedestrians are likely to stumble onto the bike lane without looking. Then you have two choices: Significantly reduce your speed, or ring your bell first and only reduce speed if…

> If you only reduce speed, you'll be traveling at a very low average speed, and time is money

Well this is a bit of an appeal to consequences. I would say (a) this is a very good reason to build dedicated infra, and (b) if something ever does happen, a court is really not going to take this line of reasoning very well, so be careful with it... even if in practice it's how you consider it.

Re: Škoda DuoBell: A bicycle bell that penetrates noise-cancelling headphones

#166

Post by walletdrainer »

eigenspace wrote: post #126
0x3f wrote: post #116

Do horns and bells really prevent accidents? In order for e.g. a horn to work you need enough time that the driver processes the situation and decides the horn will communicate something AND enough time for the pedestrian or whatever to process that and react to it. Generally it's a lot easier just to press the brake, and more importantly be travelling at a speed and in a manner where the brake is sufficient. Structu…

A horn or bell is mostly for telling other people "hey I'm here, stay out of my way and dont suddenly cross into my path" My opinion as a cyclist is that I should basically only be using my bell on pedestrians when the pedestrians are wandering onto the bike lane. If im cycling through a shared space, I find it extremely rude to ring the bell, because it feels like I'm telling people to get out of my way, but they ha…

> If im cycling through a shared space, I find it extremely rude to ring the bell, because it feels like I'm telling people to get out of my way, but they have just as much right to a shared path as I do.

It’s certainly rude to ring the bell in a aggressive manner, but many bells are capable of producing much softer, more polite sounds.

In super busy old European capitals I find that people increasingly just ride around with speakers playing a constant tune at a reasonable volume, a massive improvement on dense streets full of varyingly sober people.

Re: Škoda DuoBell: A bicycle bell that penetrates noise-cancelling headphones

#167

Post by ndsipa_pomu »

patates wrote: post #107

Draw a line, say this is for bicycles, pedestrians and cars have no business here, and bikes have no business being on any other lane as long as these exist. When bikes have to go through areas where people walk freely, they need to limit their speed to a walking pace. People should not wear headphones (noise-cancelling or not) when going through traffic as pedestrians. Take them off when crossing! People should not…

Unfortunately, the UK seems almost incapable of building usable cycle infrastructure (possibly excepting London). Your idea is just a recipe for magic protective paint and even more abuse of cyclists who don't want to be forced to use ridiculously badly designed infrastructure. e.g. Here in Bristol, we have an infamous shared cycle/pedestrian pavement along Coronation Rd that has a few trees completely blocking the cycle side which just means conflict between pedestrians and cyclists who have to fight over the scraps left over from motorists taking most of the space (https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4462522,-2.6064792,3a,75y,80...).

Re: Škoda DuoBell: A bicycle bell that penetrates noise-cancelling headphones

#168

Post by watwut »

Oras wrote: post #15

Over engineering in real life, solving lack of common sense by introducing a solution where the cyclist is paying. I think the solution is nice for sure, but solving the wrong problem.

The problem is the cyclist trying to overtake pedestrian on sidewalk faster. The cyclist paying for it is correct person paying for it.

I say it as cyclist. Pedestrians have right to be absent minded in parks and on public sidewalks.

Re: Škoda DuoBell: A bicycle bell that penetrates noise-cancelling headphones

#169

Post by Phemist »

lxgr wrote: post #160
Phemist wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real problem is that cyclists and pedestrians apparently in some countries share space commonly enough that this is necessary? In the Netherlands, bicycle utopia, I cannot remember the last time I used my bell to alert a pedestrian of my existence. Granted, I never cycle in Amsterdam, but that is a special location where high-powered ship horns are probably required. Regarding ANC, I naturally turn it off while c…

If you know of a simple technical solution to transform the entire world into the Netherlands, I'm all ears!

https://translate.kagi.com/nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geschiedeni...

This could serve as the blueprint I guess, skip to the part about the 70s and 80s protests. Collective and popular protests helped by an oil crisis, recognizing vested interests in other modes of transportation (cars) that might want to work against your efforts.

Re: Škoda DuoBell: A bicycle bell that penetrates noise-cancelling headphones

#170

Post by lxgr »

0x3f wrote: post #165
lxgr wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do horns and bells really prevent accidents? They absolutely do, for indirect reasons: > Generally it's a lot easier just to press the brake Maybe easier, but it hardly seems fair, nor realistic. With a bit of experience, you can tell when pedestrians are likely to stumble onto the bike lane without looking. Then you have two choices: Significantly reduce your speed, or ring your bell first and only reduce speed if…

> If you only reduce speed, you'll be traveling at a very low average speed, and time is money Well this is a bit of an appeal to consequences. I would say (a) this is a very good reason to build dedicated infra, and (b) if something ever does happen, a court is really not going to take this line of reasoning very well, so be careful with it... even if in practice it's how you consider it.

I'm completely in favor of building dedicated infrastructure, but I can't do that by myself. (Also, how do you prevent pedestrians from crossing said dedicated infrastructure without looking? Should it be fenced off? But I agree that there are better and worse implementations of dedicated bike lanes.)

What would you suggest cyclists do until that happens? Never go faster than walking speed? Then I can leave my bike at home. Cycle on the road, where cars can hit me, instead of the dedicated bike lane, use of which is often mandatory?

> a court is really not going to take this line of reasoning very well

A court will rule in favor of the pedestrian stepping onto a bike lane without looking getting hit by a bike that's too close to do anything?

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