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Škoda DuoBell: A bicycle bell that penetrates noise-cancelling headphones

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Re: Škoda DuoBell: A bicycle bell that penetrates noise-cancelling headphones

#151

Post by lxgr »

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #125
soco wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This only leaves open how to enforce all of it without everybody shouting domestic terror.

How do we enforce seatbelts? (1) Assume the public aren't stupid. (2) Assume the public aren't murderers. (3) Explain the risk-benefit analysis through informative videos like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julie_(1998_film) . People can shout "domestic terror" all they like, but if it's not true, it's not true.

Wearing a seatbelt cost next to nothing in inconvenience. Not being able to listen to music or have phone calls with noise cancellation while walking does not really compare.

Of course this requires compensating for the loss in awareness through hearing by looking more diligently before crossing a bike lane, but unfortunately, some people never learn this, or only through a few close calls.

"Annoyingly" ringing a bell and converting a potential accident into a close call seems pretty close to optimal to me.

Re: Škoda DuoBell: A bicycle bell that penetrates noise-cancelling headphones

#152

Post by ndsipa_pomu »

lxgr wrote: post #139
0x3f wrote: post #116

Do horns and bells really prevent accidents? In order for e.g. a horn to work you need enough time that the driver processes the situation and decides the horn will communicate something AND enough time for the pedestrian or whatever to process that and react to it. Generally it's a lot easier just to press the brake, and more importantly be travelling at a speed and in a manner where the brake is sufficient. Structu…

> Do horns and bells really prevent accidents? They absolutely do, for indirect reasons: > Generally it's a lot easier just to press the brake Maybe easier, but it hardly seems fair, nor realistic. With a bit of experience, you can tell when pedestrians are likely to stumble onto the bike lane without looking. Then you have two choices: Significantly reduce your speed, or ring your bell first and only reduce speed if…

I get your point about not wanting to reduce speed, but it's worth considering how the law might react in a worse-case scenario.

Here in the UK, there was an infamous case of Charlie Alliston who ended up getting a ridiculous 18 months prison sentence after colliding with a pedestrian who hit her head and subsequently died. He was riding a "fixie" without a front brake and was cycling at around 18mph through some green traffic lights. The pedestrian was crossing the road further on (i.e. not at a junction which is fairly normal) and wasn't paying enough attention, so Charlie shouted at her to get out of his way. He started to reduce speed (rear brake only), but then decided that he could just aim for the gap behind her, but she then reacted to his shouting by stepping backwards into his path.

The point is that the judge awarded such a tough sentence partly due to Charlie not taking all available actions to avoid a collision and also because his bike was illegal to use on the road due to having just one brake. So, if you rely on a bell to clear your path, you could be held liable if they don't respond and you collide.

Re: Škoda DuoBell: A bicycle bell that penetrates noise-cancelling headphones

#153

Post by fleebee »

paganel wrote: post #57
bdavbdav wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the roads near my office (central London), which are seldom used by cars, several pedestrians at a time very often walk down the road or diagonally cross the road head in phone. You can get very close and the still don’t notice (the slower you are, the quieter you become so even less likely to hear you). I’m not sure arguing against a bell is helpful - people need to look on any road, especially with the advent of…

Sure is helpful, because it goes like this: pedestrians first -> then cyclists -> then motorists. You may notice that in this worldview (one which I find very hard to argue against) cyclists should give priority to pedestrians, no questions asked. I don't care about fancy bells or whatever, no-one takes those into consideration even when we (us, pedestrians, that is) can hear them because, and I repeat, cyclists are…

Where I live, generally if you're allowed to use a road or a lane, you have equal rights to others using it. On a road, cyclists have equal rights to motorists; on shared lanes, pedestrians don't have special rights and are expected to walk near the edge.

Your worldview (mostly) applies to pedestrian crossings but that's the extent of it.

Re: Škoda DuoBell: A bicycle bell that penetrates noise-cancelling headphones

#154

Post by croemer »

shermozle wrote: post #144
0x3f wrote: post #116

Do horns and bells really prevent accidents? In order for e.g. a horn to work you need enough time that the driver processes the situation and decides the horn will communicate something AND enough time for the pedestrian or whatever to process that and react to it. Generally it's a lot easier just to press the brake, and more importantly be travelling at a speed and in a manner where the brake is sufficient. Structu…

A car company wanting to divert attention away from the carnage cars cause. Seems a bit suspicious no?

In Skoda's defense, it has a long tradition of making bicycles as well

Re: Škoda DuoBell: A bicycle bell that penetrates noise-cancelling headphones

#155

Post by lxgr »

Oras wrote: post #15

Over engineering in real life, solving lack of common sense by introducing a solution where the cyclist is paying. I think the solution is nice for sure, but solving the wrong problem.

What's your easy technical solution to improve common sense, then? Or is it the all time classic of "just improving society"? I'm all ears for your ideas.

Re: Škoda DuoBell: A bicycle bell that penetrates noise-cancelling headphones

#156

Post by 0x3f »

eigenspace wrote: post #126
0x3f wrote: post #116

Do horns and bells really prevent accidents? In order for e.g. a horn to work you need enough time that the driver processes the situation and decides the horn will communicate something AND enough time for the pedestrian or whatever to process that and react to it. Generally it's a lot easier just to press the brake, and more importantly be travelling at a speed and in a manner where the brake is sufficient. Structu…

A horn or bell is mostly for telling other people "hey I'm here, stay out of my way and dont suddenly cross into my path" My opinion as a cyclist is that I should basically only be using my bell on pedestrians when the pedestrians are wandering onto the bike lane. If im cycling through a shared space, I find it extremely rude to ring the bell, because it feels like I'm telling people to get out of my way, but they ha…

I think bells do have a communication use of course, just not really to be used as an emergency 'an accident is about to happen, immediately take action'.

At least a bell sounds relatively polite if you're not spamming it. A horn is a bit aggressive, you have to modulate it.

In a car I use two short tapped toots as a polite kind of 'excuse me' e.g. if someone hasn't noticed a light turning green. That seems more friendly than a sustained blast.

On the bike with a bell I'll just say thank you as I pass, if they've moved for me. Usually seems to go down well enough.

Re: Škoda DuoBell: A bicycle bell that penetrates noise-cancelling headphones

#157

Post by leoedin »

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #133
0x3f wrote: post #116

Do horns and bells really prevent accidents? In order for e.g. a horn to work you need enough time that the driver processes the situation and decides the horn will communicate something AND enough time for the pedestrian or whatever to process that and react to it. Generally it's a lot easier just to press the brake, and more importantly be travelling at a speed and in a manner where the brake is sufficient. Structu…

I concur. Even the best bell in the world may be utterly useless if the pedestrian happens to be deaf. Also, bicycle bells tend to polarise pedestrians - some people think that bells are rude and insisting that peds get out of the way and other people think it's dangerous and rude to not use a bell every time you overtake. My solution is to still have a tiny bell on my road bike, but instead of using it, call out som…

I realised after a few near misses that my voice is by far the lowest latency signal method I have. If a situation suddenly seems dangerous I'll yell. Perhaps not very polite, but far more polite than hitting someone who stepped out in front of me. A bike bell probably adds a second of latency to find the bell. I'd rather use that time to brake.

The bell can be useful as a more general "I'm here" warning. But if there's any actual risk of a collision, yelling and braking are far more effective.

Re: Škoda DuoBell: A bicycle bell that penetrates noise-cancelling headphones

#158

Post by Phemist »

joe_mamba wrote: post #124
Phemist wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to disagree that there are situations where this is useful. I'm just trying to offer the perspective from a situation where the root cause as I see it has been fixed (to a high degree). The OP seemed to suggest that people wearing ANC headgear should stop doing so, but both the bell and the ANC-wearing pedestrians are a non-issue in my lived experience. It would be a shame if these "cyclist-pedestrian AN…

> I'm just trying to offer the perspective from a situation where the root cause as I see it has been fixed (to a high degree). Your argument was not a solution. You just said, "NL fixd this, why haven't other countries?" which doesn't add any value. Have you considered that other cities/countries can't just add infrastructure that hasn't been designed from the start to accommodate bikes the same way NL has without t…

I was not trying to offer a solution, as this will be highly specific to the situation in your locality and pretty pointless for me to spend time on. I am merely identifying this as a root cause, which for some reason strikes a nerve.

Why does Skoda, a car manufacturer, care so much about interactions between cyclists and pedestrians? As you say, a bell that penetrates the car enclosures would be much more useful. I suspect a similar reason why pro-safety helmet lobby groups in NL received a lot of funding from these same car manufacturers. I digress..

For your information, post-WWII infrastructure developments in NL were initially highly car-friendly. This only started to change in the 70s and 80s, when the government started to actually create bicycle-related traffic policy, after collective protests (e.g. popular pro-bicycle protest songs were written, children refused to go to schools unless bicycle paths were laid, etc.) also helped by the oil crisis of the time.

So, no it can't be fixed overnight, but it can be fixed in reasonable time (and not an unspecified amount of decades, political capital and funding). We are even living through a repeated history right now.

Re: Škoda DuoBell: A bicycle bell that penetrates noise-cancelling headphones

#159

Post by ndsipa_pomu »

ahmedfromtunis wrote: post #48

I think it's time for some sort of a safety standard for a sound frequency to be reserved exclusively for alarm/alert use and that ANC systems have to let through. It goes without saying, use of said frequency should be prohibited for other purposes, especially marketing.

However, deaf people are allowed to drive, cycle, walk etc. so sound won't always work anyway.

Re: Škoda DuoBell: A bicycle bell that penetrates noise-cancelling headphones

#160

Post by lxgr »

Phemist wrote: post #86
Oras wrote: post #15

Over engineering in real life, solving lack of common sense by introducing a solution where the cyclist is paying. I think the solution is nice for sure, but solving the wrong problem.

The real problem is that cyclists and pedestrians apparently in some countries share space commonly enough that this is necessary? In the Netherlands, bicycle utopia, I cannot remember the last time I used my bell to alert a pedestrian of my existence. Granted, I never cycle in Amsterdam, but that is a special location where high-powered ship horns are probably required. Regarding ANC, I naturally turn it off while c…

If you know of a simple technical solution to transform the entire world into the Netherlands, I'm all ears!
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