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Škoda DuoBell: A bicycle bell that penetrates noise-cancelling headphones

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Re: Škoda DuoBell: A bicycle bell that penetrates noise-cancelling headphones

#121

Post by soco »

zielmicha wrote: post #98
ahmedfromtunis wrote: post #48

I think it's time for some sort of a safety standard for a sound frequency to be reserved exclusively for alarm/alert use and that ANC systems have to let through. It goes without saying, use of said frequency should be prohibited for other purposes, especially marketing.

I think this is a really bad idea unless paired with some regime that penalizes inappropiate use of alarms - and most societies don't treat noise pollution as a real problem. For example, people honk all the time even when there are no safety issues. Or have misconfigured home/car alarms. Outlawing using ANC for blocking "fake alarms" only makes the problem worse.

No honk in Switzerland, some honk in Romania, all honk in India. There's no one rule to rule them all.

Re: Škoda DuoBell: A bicycle bell that penetrates noise-cancelling headphones

#122

Post by jeroenhd »

Phemist wrote: post #86
Oras wrote: post #15

Over engineering in real life, solving lack of common sense by introducing a solution where the cyclist is paying. I think the solution is nice for sure, but solving the wrong problem.

The real problem is that cyclists and pedestrians apparently in some countries share space commonly enough that this is necessary? In the Netherlands, bicycle utopia, I cannot remember the last time I used my bell to alert a pedestrian of my existence. Granted, I never cycle in Amsterdam, but that is a special location where high-powered ship horns are probably required. Regarding ANC, I naturally turn it off while c…

I don't know why, but sometimes this is done intentionally.

In my (Dutch) city, there is this infuriating piece of road where the bicycle path suddenly gets routed onto the kerb, intentionally mixing bikes and pedestrians. I believe the theory is that bikes will go slower so pedestrians don't need to worry about crossing the road as much or something.

Predictably, lots bikes are taken by surprise, either brake hard and suddenly or fly through pedestrians (who the biker thinks are in their bike lane, because they would be two meters earlier).

In my experience, when bikes and pedestrians meet, one of the two groups is in the wrong place and should be watching out/slowing down and waiting.

The example video shows various instances of pedestrians walking in bike lanes (and seemingly being surprised at the sudden appearance of a bike there). You can't fix stupid, but at least you can tell them to get off the bike path.

Re: Škoda DuoBell: A bicycle bell that penetrates noise-cancelling headphones

#123

Post by keybored »

9dev wrote: post #112
keybored wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm a very law-abiding cyclist since witnessing a few horrible accidents, and yet I encounter situations with headphone-wearing pedestrians regularly. Often I'll ring my bell to no avail, until driving right up to them, and they still won't hear me. This is really frustrating; I'm definitely in the market for this. I’m guessing some law (law-abiding) gives you the right to bother people who are using their own feet…

> I’m guessing some law (law-abiding) gives you the right to bother people who are using their own feet instead of wheels because you want to pass them and they should have to actively watch out for you and yield to you? Okay, that part is fine. But I don’t see how it is nice or, I dunno, ethical. No. There are just people who will walk on a designated bicycle lane because they haven't seen the signage, are ignorant…

I totally agree in the context of bicycle lanes.

Sorry. Apparently I didn’t read your comment carefully enough.

Re: Škoda DuoBell: A bicycle bell that penetrates noise-cancelling headphones

#124

Post by joe_mamba »

Phemist wrote: post #120
joe_mamba wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dislike the smug condescending tone of your comment. Not everyone lives in the "cycle utopia" Netherlands. For some of those that don't live there, this could be a game changer and life saver since its easier to buy a bell than wait for your city to build you segregated cycle lanes. Personally, I see no use for this bell since in Austria bicycles share the road space with cars, trucks and trams rather than pedestri…

I don't mean to disagree that there are situations where this is useful. I'm just trying to offer the perspective from a situation where the root cause as I see it has been fixed (to a high degree). The OP seemed to suggest that people wearing ANC headgear should stop doing so, but both the bell and the ANC-wearing pedestrians are a non-issue in my lived experience. It would be a shame if these "cyclist-pedestrian AN…

> I'm just trying to offer the perspective from a situation where the root cause as I see it has been fixed (to a high degree).

Your argument was not a solution. You just said, "NL fixd this, why haven't other countries?" which doesn't add any value.

Have you considered that other cities/countries can't just add infrastructure that hasn't been designed from the start to accommodate bikes the same way NL has without taking space away from pedestrians or cars as the roads have stayed as narrow as back in the 1800s?

And that fixing it is not a switch you can just turn on on a whim, but requires decades of political and societal change around repurposing infrastructure, plus capital, before consensus is achieved? Democracies are complicated, even moreson in times like these.

What do you do until then, when a bell is an instant improvement?

You're commenting off the sidelines without realizing why most countries can't flip a switch and become NL overnight.

>It would be a shame if these "cyclist-pedestrian ANC-wars" distract from the real issue, that cyclists are not, but should be, a fully emancipated participant in traffic and infrastructure should be designed with cars (to a degree), bicyclists AND pedestrians in mind.

Yeah but what do you do if they are? There's no ANC wars here, Skoda just made a better bell. Are you also against the development of better bicycle helmets, because where you live you don't need them? Like yes sure, infrastructure is the real solution, but what do you do until that arrives?

Re: Škoda DuoBell: A bicycle bell that penetrates noise-cancelling headphones

#125

Post by wizzwizz4 »

soco wrote: post #117
patates wrote: post #107

Draw a line, say this is for bicycles, pedestrians and cars have no business here, and bikes have no business being on any other lane as long as these exist. When bikes have to go through areas where people walk freely, they need to limit their speed to a walking pace. People should not wear headphones (noise-cancelling or not) when going through traffic as pedestrians. Take them off when crossing! People should not…

This only leaves open how to enforce all of it without everybody shouting domestic terror.

How do we enforce seatbelts? (1) Assume the public aren't stupid. (2) Assume the public aren't murderers. (3) Explain the risk-benefit analysis through informative videos like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julie_(1998_film).

People can shout "domestic terror" all they like, but if it's not true, it's not true.

Re: Škoda DuoBell: A bicycle bell that penetrates noise-cancelling headphones

#126

Post by eigenspace »

0x3f wrote: post #116

Do horns and bells really prevent accidents? In order for e.g. a horn to work you need enough time that the driver processes the situation and decides the horn will communicate something AND enough time for the pedestrian or whatever to process that and react to it. Generally it's a lot easier just to press the brake, and more importantly be travelling at a speed and in a manner where the brake is sufficient. Structu…

A horn or bell is mostly for telling other people "hey I'm here, stay out of my way and dont suddenly cross into my path"

My opinion as a cyclist is that I should basically only be using my bell on pedestrians when the pedestrians are wandering onto the bike lane. If im cycling through a shared space, I find it extremely rude to ring the bell, because it feels like I'm telling people to get out of my way, but they have just as much right to a shared path as I do. Some cyclists ring their bells because they're worried a pedestrian might suddenly turn into their path, but I think if one is concerned about that, it's a sign youre cycling too fast, and should just slow down.

With cars, I will sometimes proactively ring my bell at them if I think they're not sufficiently aware enough of me though.

Re: Škoda DuoBell: A bicycle bell that penetrates noise-cancelling headphones

#129

Post by Phemist »

jeroenhd wrote: post #122
Phemist wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real problem is that cyclists and pedestrians apparently in some countries share space commonly enough that this is necessary? In the Netherlands, bicycle utopia, I cannot remember the last time I used my bell to alert a pedestrian of my existence. Granted, I never cycle in Amsterdam, but that is a special location where high-powered ship horns are probably required. Regarding ANC, I naturally turn it off while c…

I don't know why, but sometimes this is done intentionally. In my (Dutch) city, there is this infuriating piece of road where the bicycle path suddenly gets routed onto the kerb, intentionally mixing bikes and pedestrians. I believe the theory is that bikes will go slower so pedestrians don't need to worry about crossing the road as much or something. Predictably, lots bikes are taken by surprise, either brake hard a…

> In my (Dutch) city, there is this infuriating piece of road where the bicycle path suddenly gets routed onto the kerb, intentionally mixing bikes and pedestrians. I believe the theory is that bikes will go slower so pedestrians don't need to worry about crossing the road as much or something.

That is an unfortunate, probably experimental?, traffic design choice...

Re: Škoda DuoBell: A bicycle bell that penetrates noise-cancelling headphones

#130

Post by madsohm »

This bell would be illegal in Denmark, where our laws clearly state that you are only allowed one signal giving device and that any signal giving devices attached to vehicles (including bikes) can only produce one constant sound.

How this would be enforced is a different topic.

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