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Caveman: Why use many token when few token do trick

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Re: Caveman: Why use many token when few token do trick

#361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Because if one accepts that computer languages are languages, then it seems that we could identify one or two that are highly specialized in logical conditions etc. Prolog springs to mind.

Yes, really. The concept GP is alluding to is called the Sapir-Worf hypothesis, which is largely non scientific pop linguistics drivel. Elements of a much weaker version have some scientific merit. Programming languages are not languages in the human brain nor the culture sense.

[deleted]

Re: Caveman: Why use many token when few token do trick

#362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A fundamental (but sadly common) error behind “tokens are units of thinking” is antropomorphising the model as a thinking being. That’s a pretty wild claim that requires a lot of proof, and possibly solving the hard problem, before it can be taken seriously. There’s a less magical model of how LLMs work: they are essentially fancy autocomplete engines. Most of us probably have an intuition that the more you give an a…

IMO "thinking" here means "computation", like running matrix multiplications. Another view could be: "thinking" means "producing tokens". This doesn't require any proof because it's literally what the models do. As I understand it, the claim is: more tokens = more computation = more "thinking" => answer probably better.

I don't agree with GP's take on anthropomorphising[0], but in this particular discussion, I meant something even simpler by "thinking" - imagine it more like manually stepping a CPU, or powering a machine by turning a crank. Each output token is kinda like a clock signal, or a full crank turn. There's lots of highly complex stuff happening inside the CPU/machine - circuits switching/gears turning - but there's a limit of how much of it can happen in a single cycle.

Say that limit is X. This means if your problem fundamentally requires at least Y compute to be solved, your machine will never give you a reliable answer in less than ceil(Y/N) steps.

LLMs are like this - a loop is programmed to step the CPU/turn the crank until the machine emits a magic "stop" token. So in this sense, asking an LLM to be concise means reducing the number of compute it can perform, and if you insist on it too much, it may stop so early as to fundamentally have been unable to solve the problem in computational space allotted.

This perspective requires no assumptions about "thinking" or anything human-like happening inside - it follows just from time and energy being finite :).

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[0] - I strongly think the industry is doing a huge disservice avoiding to anthropomorphize LLMs, as treating them as "little people on a chip" is the best high-level model we have for understanding their failure modes and role in larger computing systems - and instead, we just have tons of people wasting their collective efforts trying to fix "lethal trifecta" as if it was a software bug and not fundamental property of what makes LLM interesting. Already wrote more on it in this thread, so I'll stop here.

Re: Caveman: Why use many token when few token do trick

#363
post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is actual research suggesting concise prompting can reduce response length substantially without always wrecking quality, Anecdote: i discussed that with an LLM once and it explained to me that LLMs tend to respond to terse questions with terse answers because that's what humans (i.e. their training data) tend to do. Similarly, it explained to me that polite requests tend to lead to LLM responses with _more_…

> i discussed that with an LLM once and it explained to me that LLMs... Do you have any idea how dumb this sounds?

Do you? I have the same knee-jerk reaction, but if you think about for more than 2 seconds, LLMs at this point have, through training, read much more research about LLMs than any human, so actually, it's not a dumb thing to do. It may not be very current, though.

Re: Caveman: Why use many token when few token do trick

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> i discussed that with an LLM once and it explained to me that LLMs... Do you have any idea how dumb this sounds?

Do you? I have the same knee-jerk reaction, but if you think about for more than 2 seconds, LLMs at this point have, through training, read much more research about LLMs than any human, so actually, it's not a dumb thing to do. It may not be very current, though.

> read much more research about LLMs than any human

How long a response is from an LLM is going to be completely individual based on the system prompt and the model itself. You can read all of the "LLM research" in the world and it's not going to give you a correct generalized answer about this topic. It's not like this is some inherent property of LLMs.

Re: Caveman: Why use many token when few token do trick

#366
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> much of the thinking happens in a much higher dimensional space that just happens to be decoded as text. What do you mean by that? It’s literally text prediction, isn’t it?

It is text prediction. But to predict text, other things follow that need to be calculated. If you can step back just a minute, i can provide a very simple but adjacent idea that might help to intuit the complexity of “ text prediction “ . I have a list of numbers, 0 to9, and the + , = operators. I will train my model on this dataset, except the model won’t get the list, they will get a bunch of addition problems. A…

It didn't. It predicted symbols.

Re: Caveman: Why use many token when few token do trick

#367
post #335

If you’re not cavemaxxing you’re falling behind.

I dropped dead after reading this.

As very much an outsider and, to some extent, apostate to all this, it's pretty astonishing to see.

Unironically not just delegating all thinking to a sketchy and untrustworthy machine, but doubling down on it by aping the caveman in the belief that this will more effectively summon the great metal-wing sky god and bring limitless yum stuff.

Wow. I don't even have to do anything. You guys are disemvoweling yourselves in some kind of strange ritual. You sure are trusting souls!

Re: Caveman: Why use many token when few token do trick

#368
post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In single-turn use, yeah, but across dozens of turns there's probably value in optimizing the output. Btw your point lands just as well without "Cute idea, but" https://odap.knrdd.com/patterns/condescending-reveal

Pretty neat site you've got there. You should submit it to Show HN. I had fun clicking around - it's like TVTropes, except the examples make me angry, lol. It would be pretty fun to train an LLM on this site and then have it flag my comments before I get downvoted, haha.

Thanks! I want to do something similar to your LLM suggestion, the endgame is tooling for forums and individuals to improve the quality of discourse. More broadly, I think LLMs and recent advancements now make it possible to assist with self improvement (e.g., see former startup Humu’s nudges but for everyone instead of just B2B)

Re: Caveman: Why use many token when few token do trick

#369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still attention and next-token-prediction and nothing else. The only new innovation is MoE, something that's used to optimize local models and not for the "SOTA" cloud offerings you're so fond of.

You no listen. Me give up. Go learn on fruit phone.

LLMs are literally next token prediction engines and nothing else.

Diffusion for text is not even an academic toy at this point and will likely never be a real thing.

Re: Caveman: Why use many token when few token do trick

#370
post #292

Author here. A few people are arguing against a stronger claim than the repo is meant to make. As well, this was very much intended to be a joke and not research level commentary. This skill is not intended to reduce hidden reasoning / thinking tokens. Anthropic’s own docs suggest more thinking budget can improve performance, so I would not claim otherwise. What it targets is the visible completion: less preamble, le…

> There is actual research suggesting concise prompting can reduce response length substantially without always wrecking quality, Anecdote: i discussed that with an LLM once and it explained to me that LLMs tend to respond to terse questions with terse answers because that's what humans (i.e. their training data) tend to do. Similarly, it explained to me that polite requests tend to lead to LLM responses with _more_…

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