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Why Switzerland has 25 Gbit internet and America doesn't

sschueller.github.io

371–380 of 726 posts

Re: Why Switzerland has 25 Gbit internet and America doesn't

#371

The comparison feels off because it treats Switzerland and the United States as interchangeable test cases for “free market vs. not,” when they operate under completely different constraints. Switzerland is a small, highly cohesive country with strong local governance, high trust, and tightly scoped systems. The U.S. is a continental-scale federation with massive regional variation, different institutional layers, an…

Many states prohibit municipalities to do fiber. Regulatory capture and monopolies are your problem.

Sweden managed to build out fiber almost everywhere and are much more like some of your states.

Re: Why Switzerland has 25 Gbit internet and America doesn't

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Free markets tend toward monopoly Not true and oversimplification. Some markets tend toward monopolies, but you rarely will get one unless enforced/protected by a state. If you navigate through history, you will find almost exclusively monopolies on salt extraction, coal mining oligopolies (with the help of worker unions), silk... Curiously, the Standard Oil was accused of being a monopoly, and the proof was they w…

You're right on most of these, but wrong on telephony. That actually was a natural monopoly. It's exactly how OP describes it. It's unproductive for multiple companies to maintain disconnected, parallel telephone infrastructures. The most productive use of resources is to lay more wires to more houses, not to lay more wires to places which have already been wired up for telephone service by somebody else. That create…

We use "natural monopoly" too freely and too quickly, almost as a free card to actually implement monopolies that last for decades. Anecdo-time: in my small city there is a small "natural" monopoly in public bus service: the municipality offers a monopoly on which buses can operate in the city, that lasts for 25 years or so. I lived through a renewal that was a bit rocky, the bus company went on a strike, and as a result there was a vacuum of monopoly for six months. That resulted in a flood of other companies, big and tiny (as in 1 bus only, serving 1 very demanded route), doing the routes. They were as cheap as it gets, offering month cards outrageously cheaper than previous public-natural-monopoly. It was so cheap, and the offer was so high that cars seemed to vanish from the city center, that was so full of buses that you didn't even check the timetable: you just waited for the next for 5 minutes.

Eventually the municipality renewed the previous contract with the same previous company, a contract that forbids other companies from entering the city center, and we went back to the worse service we were used to. Of course they were a lot of narratives: they were trying to capture the market, drive competence away and then hike the prices; they were bounded to bankrupcy at such prices; that many buses were damaging the roads, and others. But the reality was that for a brief time we had the best bus service in the modern world.

As for telephone wires, we went through some years, between copper-IDSN and fiber (the DSL bridge) that a lot of companies found a way to make it profitable to put new copper cable parallel to what it already existed. The only thing the municipality did was to make it mandatory that the first to install it must use a wider-than-needed conduct (a solution much less disruptive than giving a natural monopoly, latest shown by new small companies born everywhere), so if a company wanted to add more cable later could use the same tubing. Predictions about company A blocking their tubing showed false, as other companies could retaliate in other places. No second tubing was allowed until the first tube was full, this was the only state intervention in the issue. The same tubes have now the optic fiber.

I am not fully anti-state, but there are undeniable overreaching everywhere, and a lot of zealots of intervention that are itching to issue mandates and interfere with everything, and then fix what fails with more interventions.

Re: Why Switzerland has 25 Gbit internet and America doesn't

#373
post #74

This article gets ahead of itself. The issue isn’t the splitting. There is no fiber to even split in most places. A lot of places in America had their “network” infra built 50-100 years ago on copper and no one wants to pay to basically rebuild all of it. I happen to live in an area where there are still above ground utilities. We got >5 gig fiber fast. We have 700Mbps 5G. I literally watched them string the fiber on…

I'ts almost certainly shared. 99% of FTTH is (X)G(S)-PON which shares the fibre over a few properties. Usually something like 32 max. The Swiss use point to point fibre (there are a few small pockets of this elsewhere). But in reality it is very hard to saturate. XGSPON has 10G/10G shared between the node. GPON has 2.4gbit down/1.2gbit up shared across the node. In reality point to point is not really a benefit in 99…

Yep, exactly! I live in Switzerland. The article is misleading. Switzerland doesn't have 25 Gbit consumer internet, quite obviously, as nowhere does. It has a state-owned telco that advertises 10 Gbit to ordinary consumers without making it obvious to the buyer that they won't be able to use anything above 1Gbit without exotic and expensive equipment they are near-guaranteed to not have (unless they're literally a high speed networking hobbyist).

I noticed this years ago and thought it was an extremely sharp and therefore unSwiss practice, that in a more free market with better regulation and a more feral press would have already attracted a rap on the knuckles from the truth-in-advertising people. But Swisscom is government owned and has fingers in a thousand pies, so they're allowed to get away with it.

Unfortunately because regular consumers just compare numbers and assume higher is always better, this practice has dragged fully private ISPs into offering it now too. So the entire market is just engaged in systemic consumer fraud by this point. God knows how many people are overpaying for bandwidth their machines literally can't use without realizing it.

That said, the basic point Schüller is making is sound that the fiber cables themselves are more like roads than internet. They aren't a natural monopoly but the cost of overbuild is so high that it makes sense to treat it like one. It's just a pity that in the end this doesn't make a difference as big as the article seems to be advertising in its title.

Re: Why Switzerland has 25 Gbit internet and America doesn't

#374

italy, a house in the so called 'rich' nord est, where 'Lega' party has been ruling for decades: * no fiber in the neightbour I am * internet on mobile: 10M when lucky * all houses have no city water pipe I'm glad they started to collect blak water (a month ago)

Currently in Palermo old town. Got fiber and get 200+ mbit over wifi. Even 5g when I go out.

Re: Why Switzerland has 25 Gbit internet and America doesn't

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can confirm this guy is Swiss Has arguably the best infrastructure and system in the world and will still find issue with it. A real Swiss hardly knows the horror show that is the rest of the non-Switzerland world. yeah, fiber rollout is slow outside of the cities. It’s still better than 95% of the developed world. All perspective.

People endlessly complain that the SBB is 'always' late.

Like if you have a semi-important meeting in Zurich at 9am It's perfectly fine to take a train which arrives in Zurich at 8:53.

And in an unlikely scenario that the train is late, everyone will agree that it's a valid circumstance.

Re: Why Switzerland has 25 Gbit internet and America doesn't

#376

Because Switzerland is the size of Maryland. Imagine pouring all federal resources into one cramped state. I thought spamming your own blog was not allowed here.

Sweden managed to build out fiber almost everywhere. Size of California, quite urban, but you'll still have fiber in the rural parts or even your cabin in the woods.

Re: Why Switzerland has 25 Gbit internet and America doesn't

#377
post #240
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So one would think. And yet, living in Switzerland after the UK involved one after another discovery of how well-ordered and -run a country could be. And then moving to Germany was like stepping back even further behind my memories of the UK. I'm sure you could find examples of countries that do specific things as well as Switzerland; but I'm not aware of many places that do almost everything so excellently. (Maybe J…

> I'm not aware of many places that do almost everything so excellently Probably Singapore, which is sometimes described as the Switzerland of Asia anyway. 10 Gb symmetric fibre is broadly available at around SGD $50/month (about 35 EUR).

Singapore seems very oppressive and medieval when it comes to punishment of crimes. I wouldn't want to live there.

Re: Why Switzerland has 25 Gbit internet and America doesn't

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a gentle rule, which is "if you can do it in one place, it is probably possible to do it in a second". The Swiss are not a separate species.

There are a lot of things you can do in a rich, tiny, homogenous country that you can't do in a enormous, diverse country. If my house were a country, I'd be in the top 0.1% of household internet speeds compared to other countries. Obviously everyone should be just like me!

Many US states are richer than Switzerland, what's their excuse?

Re: Why Switzerland has 25 Gbit internet and America doesn't

#379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's so homogeneous that there are 4 national languages, one of which is german with tons of loval dialects. It's so homogeneous that each canton has own sub regulations. It's so homogeneous that in it's biggest city, Zurich, 34% of people are foreigners and 45% born outside of Switzerland. But we can look at the opposite part of spectrum - Moldova, poorest country in Europe - 85% of infra is covered by fibre, >90% o…

> 34% of people are foreigners I remember moving there, hearing talks about how international Zurich was, and then realizing most of those foreigners were German. :-) It's diverse on paper (and probably to the Swiss), but it's not like it's a cosmopolitan melting pot.

They really aren't.

Re: Why Switzerland has 25 Gbit internet and America doesn't

#380
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is a great example of where the government should step in and say “welp, you took too long, we’re now funding municiple fiber and we’ll give it to everyone cheap. sorry.” i truly do believe competition can often drivr things forward but we have countless examples where executives get comfortable and decide their best course of action for profits is to do little to nothing. if a community has been screaming for f…

[flagged]

That’s not necessarily true. A lot of companies are very risk averse and will sit there creaming off profit and not making any investment.

If someone came to you and said - you have two choices:

Work incredibly hard, raise a lot of money, build a bunch of infrastructure. And at some point in the future you will make some more money.

Or - keep taking your very nice high guaranteed salary for the foreseeable future.

What would you pick?

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