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Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

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Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#211

Post by steve1977 »

pjmlp wrote: post #190
MarcelinoGMX3C wrote: post #144

The deeper problem is that Microsoft keeps trying to solve GUI consistency at the framework layer instead of the design system layer. WinForms, WPF, UWP, WinUI -- each one a new framework, each one eventually abandoned. Apple solved this by treating the design system as the product and letting the framework be invisible. Microsoft has it backwards every time.

Being a 70's child, in computing since the mid 80s you made me almost spill my Monday coffee. What a laugh, do you want the examples on Apple's side?

I mean Cocoa and SwiftUI are more consistent in the sense that a lot of stuff automatically adapts when Apple changes styling. And they certainly have less churn and more focus compared to Microsoft.

Basically it's been Objective-C and Cocoa since around 2000, later on Swift and then also SwiftUI. That's not too bad for 25 years.

And in contrast to MS, you didn't get abandoned when you were sticking to the official frameworks. Quite contrary, you basically got the switches from PowerPC to x86 to ARM almost for free for example.

Apple is not perfect by any means, but in this regard I truly think they are ahead of Microsoft.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#212

Post by nottorp »

mwcampbell wrote: post #129

> WPF was good As someone who saw what impact WPF had on average users running average hardware in the late 2000s to early 2010s, I disagree. In 2011, my brother was in seminary, using an average Windows Vista-era laptop that he had been given in 2008. When he was home for Christmas in 2011, we were talking about his laptop, and he told me that the Logos Bible software ran sluggishly on that laptop. He said something…

Hmm doesn't that sound like Apple's Tahoe/iOS 26? Effects upon effects upon more effects.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#213

Post by mckn1ght »

Iulioh wrote: post #199
pjmlp wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a 70's child, in computing since the mid 80s you made me almost spill my Monday coffee. What a laugh, do you want the examples on Apple's side?

The evergreen question of "how do you go back and/or close an app on IOS?"

Maybe just the circles I run in but these are not evergreen questions in my experience. I don't even know what "go back" is supposed to mean here, or for that matter what it would mean in a Windows application. Is there a system level "go back" in WinAmp/Excel/SimCity/Photoshop I've never seen before?

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#214

Post by steve1977 »

nottorp wrote: post #212
mwcampbell wrote: post #129

> WPF was good As someone who saw what impact WPF had on average users running average hardware in the late 2000s to early 2010s, I disagree. In 2011, my brother was in seminary, using an average Windows Vista-era laptop that he had been given in 2008. When he was home for Christmas in 2011, we were talking about his laptop, and he told me that the Logos Bible software ran sluggishly on that laptop. He said something…

Hmm doesn't that sound like Apple's Tahoe/iOS 26? Effects upon effects upon more effects.

iOS 26 runs surprisingly smooth on my iPhone 12 Pro Max though.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#215

Post by gf000 »

Kwpolska wrote: post #205
MarcelinoGMX3C wrote: post #144

The deeper problem is that Microsoft keeps trying to solve GUI consistency at the framework layer instead of the design system layer. WinForms, WPF, UWP, WinUI -- each one a new framework, each one eventually abandoned. Apple solved this by treating the design system as the product and letting the framework be invisible. Microsoft has it backwards every time.

You can't just take 40 years of Win32 apps and add the Metro design language, touchscreen compatibility, or dark mode system-wide. WPF nowadays has a skin that imitates WinUI, so at least Microsoft is trying.

Sure, but you could have had a uniform design language for the last 3 or so frameworks.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#216

Post by tannhaeuser »

PaulHoule wrote: post #2

The churn would have been much worse if Microsoft was rolling out successful GUI framework after GUI framework. As it is you can still write a Win32 app if that pleases you, or still write .NET (and damn that runtime download!) Microsoft has bought into ‘make a web app’ since 1988, they introduced AJAX, they got flexbox and grid into CSS and numerous HTML 5 features to support application UIs. They ‘frikin bought npm…

Windows until 24H2 (when Edge and the last remnants of IE were replaced by Chrome) supported HTML apps [1], introduced with Windows 98 Active Desktop. They weren't used much but actually not that bad for end-user needs.

[1]: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/previous-versions/ms536495...

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#217

Post by Iulioh »

mckn1ght wrote: post #213
Iulioh wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The evergreen question of "how do you go back and/or close an app on IOS?"

Maybe just the circles I run in but these are not evergreen questions in my experience. I don't even know what "go back" is supposed to mean here, or for that matter what it would mean in a Windows application. Is there a system level "go back" in WinAmp/Excel/SimCity/Photoshop I've never seen before?

I was referring to IOS, not MACOS

Androids do have universal back button at the bottom on the phone or the same swipe gesture if you want but iphones do not.

Sometimes swipe (the direction and position is a guessing game), sometimes and x (right or left ) and the behavior is inconsistent too (back or close)

There are some guidelines but more often than not seems like every app has it's own method and you need to get used to it

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#218

Post by bayindirh »

Iulioh wrote: post #217
mckn1ght wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe just the circles I run in but these are not evergreen questions in my experience. I don't even know what "go back" is supposed to mean here, or for that matter what it would mean in a Windows application. Is there a system level "go back" in WinAmp/Excel/SimCity/Photoshop I've never seen before?

I was referring to IOS, not MACOS Androids do have universal back button at the bottom on the phone or the same swipe gesture if you want but iphones do not. Sometimes swipe (the direction and position is a guessing game), sometimes and x (right or left ) and the behavior is inconsistent too (back or close) There are some guidelines but more often than not seems like every app has it's own method and you need to get…

In iOS, task manager and closure can't be overridden. You swipe right to return to previous application. You can swipe left for a couple of seconds if you didn't intend to do that.

You swipe up and remove the application from the stack, all processes of the application is killed.

Background processing has strict limits, and you need permissions to run longer than that, and for some use cases, there are no recourse. OS swaps you out or freezes the app.

If you want an app to work in the background, don't kill it, period. Push notifications are handled by the OS and is not hindered by this.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#219

Post by solarkraft »

Kwpolska wrote: post #205
MarcelinoGMX3C wrote: post #144

The deeper problem is that Microsoft keeps trying to solve GUI consistency at the framework layer instead of the design system layer. WinForms, WPF, UWP, WinUI -- each one a new framework, each one eventually abandoned. Apple solved this by treating the design system as the product and letting the framework be invisible. Microsoft has it backwards every time.

You can't just take 40 years of Win32 apps and add the Metro design language, touchscreen compatibility, or dark mode system-wide. WPF nowadays has a skin that imitates WinUI, so at least Microsoft is trying.

Right, but you can make basic adjustments to the theme to fit the rest of the system better, which took them all the way until Windows 11 to realize.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#220

Post by direwolf20 »

dagmx wrote: post #210
TiredOfLife wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple solved this This comment written before Tahoe

Snide and subjective comments aside, you’ve clearly missed their point. Even if you take away subjective opinions on Liquid Glass, the point is that the core system updates things across the board. Unless apps have implemented custom drawing, you get a consistent-ish UI (for better or worse) across the system, whereas with windows you are beholden to whatever hodge podge of UI frameworks were chosen at the given time…

That's a bad thing. It breaks apps. Apple has decided to stop supporting apps that aren't continually updated. Microsoft hasn't.
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