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Caveman: Why use many token when few token do trick

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Re: Caveman: Why use many token when few token do trick

#221
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but not all tokens are created equal. Some tokens are hard to predict and thus encode useful information; some are highly predictable and therefore don't. Spending an entire forward pass through the token-generation machine just to generate a very low-entropy token like "is" is wasteful . The LLM doesn't get to "remember" that thinking, it just gets to see a trivial grammar-filling token that a very dumb LLM cou…

> They aren't stenographically hiding useful computation state in words like "the" and "and". Do you know that is true? These aren’t just tokens, they’re tokens with specific position encodings preceded by specific context. The position as a whole is a lot richer than you make it out to be. I think this is probably an unanswered empirical question, unless you’ve read otherwise.

I am quite certain.

The output is "just tokens"; the "position encodings" and "context" are inputs to the LLM function, not outputs. The information that a token can carry is bounded by the entropy of that token. A highly predictable token (given the context) simply can't communicate anything.

Again: if a tiny language model or even a basic markov model would also predict the same token, it's a safe bet it doesn't encode any useful thinking when the big model spits it out.

Re: Caveman: Why use many token when few token do trick

#222

Author here. A few people are arguing against a stronger claim than the repo is meant to make. As well, this was very much intended to be a joke and not research level commentary. This skill is not intended to reduce hidden reasoning / thinking tokens. Anthropic’s own docs suggest more thinking budget can improve performance, so I would not claim otherwise. What it targets is the visible completion: less preamble, le…

Translation:

It joke. No yell at me. It kind of work?

Re: Caveman: Why use many token when few token do trick

#224
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They aren't stenographically hiding useful computation state in words like "the" and "and". Do you know that is true? These aren’t just tokens, they’re tokens with specific position encodings preceded by specific context. The position as a whole is a lot richer than you make it out to be. I think this is probably an unanswered empirical question, unless you’ve read otherwise.

I am quite certain. The output is "just tokens"; the "position encodings" and "context" are inputs to the LLM function, not outputs. The information that a token can carry is bounded by the entropy of that token. A highly predictable token (given the context) simply can't communicate anything. Again: if a tiny language model or even a basic markov model would also predict the same token, it's a safe bet it doesn't en…

I just don’t share your certainty. You may or may not be right, but if there isn’t a result showing this, then I’m not going to assume it.

Re: Caveman: Why use many token when few token do trick

#225
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re able to solve complex, unstructured problems independently. They can express themselves in every major human language fluently. Sure, they don’t actually have a brain like we do, but they emulate it pretty well. What’s your definition of thinking?

When OP wrote about LLMs "thinking" he implied that they have an internal conceptual self-reflecting state. Which they don't, they *are* merely next token predicting statistical machines.

This was true in 2023.

Re: Caveman: Why use many token when few token do trick

#226
post #202
post #5

Oh boy. Someone didn't get the memo that for LLMs, tokens are units of thinking . I.e. whatever feat of computation needs to happen to produce results you seek, it needs to fit in the tokens the LLM produces. Being a finite system, there's only so much computation the LLM internal structure can do per token, so the more you force the model to be concise, the more difficult the task becomes for it - worst case, you ca…

Yeah but not all tokens are created equal. Some tokens are hard to predict and thus encode useful information; some are highly predictable and therefore don't. Spending an entire forward pass through the token-generation machine just to generate a very low-entropy token like "is" is wasteful . The LLM doesn't get to "remember" that thinking, it just gets to see a trivial grammar-filling token that a very dumb LLM cou…

can you prove this?

train an LLM to leave out the filler words, and see it get the same performance at a lower cost? or do it at token selection time?

Re: Caveman: Why use many token when few token do trick

#228
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> much of the thinking happens in a much higher dimensional space that just happens to be decoded as text. What do you mean by that? It’s literally text prediction, isn’t it?

It is text prediction. But to predict text, other things follow that need to be calculated. If you can step back just a minute, i can provide a very simple but adjacent idea that might help to intuit the complexity of “ text prediction “ . I have a list of numbers, 0 to9, and the + , = operators. I will train my model on this dataset, except the model won’t get the list, they will get a bunch of addition problems. A…

>internalize the concepts.

This gives the impression that it is doing something more than pattern matching. I think this kind of communication where some human attribute is used to name some concept in the LLM domain is causing a lot of damage, and ends up inadvertently blowing up the hype for the AI marketing...

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