Live data from Hacker News

Caveman: Why use many token when few token do trick

github.com

161–170 of 396 posts

Re: Caveman: Why use many token when few token do trick

#161
post #74
post #5

Oh boy. Someone didn't get the memo that for LLMs, tokens are units of thinking . I.e. whatever feat of computation needs to happen to produce results you seek, it needs to fit in the tokens the LLM produces. Being a finite system, there's only so much computation the LLM internal structure can do per token, so the more you force the model to be concise, the more difficult the task becomes for it - worst case, you ca…

[flagged]

[dead]

Re: Caveman: Why use many token when few token do trick

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i imagine they're doing superman level distributed compute across multiple clouds somewhere and cared more about delivering the final result of that than having the ability to pause. which is probably possible, but would require way more work than would be worthwhile. they probably thought the ability to stop and resubmit would be an adequate substitute.

These models are autoregressive so I doubt they are running them across multiple clouds. And besides, a pause button is useful from a user's pov.

i'm not sure it is, what's so useful about it?

Re: Caveman: Why use many token when few token do trick

#163
post #5

Oh boy. Someone didn't get the memo that for LLMs, tokens are units of thinking . I.e. whatever feat of computation needs to happen to produce results you seek, it needs to fit in the tokens the LLM produces. Being a finite system, there's only so much computation the LLM internal structure can do per token, so the more you force the model to be concise, the more difficult the task becomes for it - worst case, you ca…

A fundamental (but sadly common) error behind “tokens are units of thinking” is antropomorphising the model as a thinking being. That’s a pretty wild claim that requires a lot of proof, and possibly solving the hard problem, before it can be taken seriously.

There’s a less magical model of how LLMs work: they are essentially fancy autocomplete engines.

Most of us probably have an intuition that the more you give an autocomplete, the better results it will yield. However, does this extend to output of the autocomplete—i.e. the more tokens it uses for the result, the better?

It could well be true in context of chain of thought[0] models, in the sense that the output of a preceding autocomplete step is then fed as input to the next autocomplete step, and therefore would yield better results in the end. In other words, with this intuition, if caveman speak is applied early enough in the chain, it would indeed hamper the quality of the end result; and if it is applied later, it would not really save that many tokens.

Willing to be corrected by someone more familiar with NN architecture, of course.

[0] I can see “thinking” used as a term of art, distinct from its regular meaning, when discussing “chain of thought” models; sort of like what “learning” is in “machine learning”.

Re: Caveman: Why use many token when few token do trick

#165
post #5

Oh boy. Someone didn't get the memo that for LLMs, tokens are units of thinking . I.e. whatever feat of computation needs to happen to produce results you seek, it needs to fit in the tokens the LLM produces. Being a finite system, there's only so much computation the LLM internal structure can do per token, so the more you force the model to be concise, the more difficult the task becomes for it - worst case, you ca…

Yeah, I don't think that "I'd be happy to help you with that" or "Sure, let me take a look at that for you" carries much useful signal that can be used for the next tokens.

You'd be surprised -- This could match on the model's training to proceed using a tool, for example.

Re: Caveman: Why use many token when few token do trick

#166
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a study that shows that what the model is doing behind the scenes in those cases is a lot more than just outputting those tokens. For an LLM, tokens are thought. They have no ability to think, by whatever definition of that word you like, without outputting something . The token only represents a tiny fraction of the internal state changes made when a token is output. Clearly there is an optimal for each tas…

[flagged]

[flagged]

Re: Caveman: Why use many token when few token do trick

#167
post #5

Oh boy. Someone didn't get the memo that for LLMs, tokens are units of thinking . I.e. whatever feat of computation needs to happen to produce results you seek, it needs to fit in the tokens the LLM produces. Being a finite system, there's only so much computation the LLM internal structure can do per token, so the more you force the model to be concise, the more difficult the task becomes for it - worst case, you ca…

More concise is dumber. Got it.

Re: Caveman: Why use many token when few token do trick

#170
This is fun. I'd like to see the same idea but oriented for richer tokens instead of simpler tokens. If you want to spend less tokens, then spend the 'good' ones. So, instead of saying 'make good' you could say 'improve idiomatically' or something. Depends on one's needs. I try to imagine every single token as an opportunity to bend/expand/limit the geometries I have access to. Language is a beautiful modulator to apply to reality, so I'll wager applying it with pedantic finesse will bring finer outputs than brutish humphs of cavemen. But let's see the benchmarks!
Post reply on HN