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The threat is comfortable drift toward not understanding what you're doing

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Re: The threat is comfortable drift toward not understanding what you're doing

#121
post #59
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The real world isn’t an exam hall where your boss tells you “no naughty AI!”, you just get stuff done, and if Bob can do that with agents, nobody cares. Indeed. That's why Anthropic had to hire real engineers to make sure their vibe-coded shit doesn't consume 68GB of RAM. Because real world: https://x.com/jarredsumner/status/2026497606575398987

If your job has been totally unaffected by AI, then I am jealous. I’m not trying to argue that AI can do everything today. I acknowledge that there are many things that it is not good at.

But do you believe that they'll continue to improve until they're good at everything, all the time, in ways a human can never match?

If yes, then that's dangerously optimistic. If not, then we'll always need humans who have learned the "hard way" (the Alices, not the Bobs). But if LLMs make it impossible for Alices to come up in the field, we're screwed.

Re: The threat is comfortable drift toward not understanding what you're doing

#122
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't sound like much of an issue. Bob was already going to encounter problems that are too large and complex for him to solve, agents or otherwise. Life throws us hard problems. I don't recall if we even assumed Bob was unusually capable, he might be one of life's flounderers. I'd give good odds that if he got through a program with the help of agents he'll get through life achieving at least a normal level o…

> we're trending towards superintelligence with these AIs I wouldn't count on that because even if it happens, we don't know when it ill happen, and it's one of those things where how close it looks to be is no indication of how close it actually is. We could just as easily spend the next 100 years being 10 years away from agi. Just look at fusion power, self driving cars, etc.

Fusion isn't a good example. Self driving cars are a battle between regulation and 9's of reliability, if we were willing to accept self driving cars that crashed as much as humans it'd be here already.

Whatever models suck at, we can pour money into making them do better. It's very cut and dry. The squirrely bit is how that contributes to "general intelligence" and whether the models are progressing towards overall autonomy due to our changes. That mostly matters for the AGI mouthbreathers though, people doing actual work just care that the models have improved.

Re: The threat is comfortable drift toward not understanding what you're doing

#123
post #90
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't sound like much of an issue. Bob was already going to encounter problems that are too large and complex for him to solve, agents or otherwise. Life throws us hard problems. I don't recall if we even assumed Bob was unusually capable, he might be one of life's flounderers. I'd give good odds that if he got through a program with the help of agents he'll get through life achieving at least a normal level o…

> we're trending towards superintelligence with these AIs The article addresses this, because, well... no we aren't. Maybe we are. But it's far from clear that we're not moving toward a plateau in what these agents can do. > Whether a human does actual work or not isn't particularly exciting to a market. You seem to be convinced these AI agents will continue to improve without bound, so I think this is where the disc…

> But it's far from clear that we're not moving toward a plateau in what these agents can do.

It is a debatable topic, and I agree with you that it's unclear whether we will hit the wall or not at some point. But one point I want to mention is that at the time when the AI agents were only conceived and the most popular type of """AI""" was LLM-based chatbot, it also seemed that we're approaching some kind of plateau in their performance. Then "agents" appeared, and this plateau, the wall we're likely to hit at some point, the boundary was pushed further. I don't know (who knows at all?) how far away we can push the boundaries, but who knows what comes next? Who knows, for example, when a completely new architecture different from Transformers will come out and be adopted everywhere, which will allow for something new? Future is uncertain. We may hit the wall this year, or we may not hit it in the next 10-20 years. It is, indeed, unclear.

Re: The threat is comfortable drift toward not understanding what you're doing

#124
post #32
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should we only do things that produce some sort of value? Do we really want to reduce all of human existence to increasing profits?

What’s a better method for determining how to utilize and distribute resources? To determine where energy should be used and where it should be moved from?

Some things are just enjoyable. I get no real utility from photography - it’s not my career, it’s not a side gig, and I’m not giving prints out as gifts. Most of the shots never get printed at all. I do it because I enjoy the act itself, of knowing how to make an image frozen in time look a particular way by tweaking parameters on the camera, and then seeing the result. I furthermore enjoy the fact that I could achieve the same result on a dumb film camera, because I spent time learning the fundamentals.

Re: The threat is comfortable drift toward not understanding what you're doing

#125
Very insightful. One key sentence sums it up: "He shipped a product, but he didn't learn a trade."

This is going to get worse, and eventually cause disastrous damage unless we do something about it, as we risk losing human institutional memory across just about every domain, and end up as child-like supplicants to the machines.

But as the article says, this is a people problem, not a machine problem.

Re: The threat is comfortable drift toward not understanding what you're doing

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AI does not give you knowledge. It magnifies both intelligence and stupidity with zero bias towards either. If you were above average intelligent then you may be able to do a little bit more than before assuming you were trained before AI came along. And if you were not so smart then you will be able to make larger messes. The problem, and I think the article indirectly points at that, is that the next generation to…

Maybe the solution is for an AI that acts as an instructor instead of just trying to solve everything itself. I do this with my kids, they ask me how to do something. I will give them hints, but not outright do it all for them. The article writer in the first part mentioned that this is how they would instruct too.

I recently heard that a professor said to the class, you can use an ai to solve the assignments. However I'll see if you really understand the material on the final exam.

Re: The threat is comfortable drift toward not understanding what you're doing

#127
I think this is a very important debate, and I think the author here adds a lot to this discussion! I mostly agree with it, but wanted to point out a few areas where I do not fully agree.

> Take away the agent, and Bob is still a first-year student who hasn't started yet.

This may be true, but I can see almost no conceivable word where the agent will be taken away. I think we should evaluate Bob's ability based on what he can do with an agent, not without, and here he seems to be doing quite well.

> I've been hearing "just wait" since 2023.

On almost any timeline, this is very short. Given the fact that we have already arrived at models able to almost build complete computer programs based on a single prompt, and solve frontier level math problems, I think any framework that relies on humans continuing to have an edge over LLMs in the medium term may be built on shaky grounds.

Two very interesting questions today in this vein for me are:

- Is the best way to teach complex topics to students today to have them carry out simple tasks?

The author acknowledges that the difference between Bob and Alice only materializes at a very high level, basically when Alice becomes a PI of her own. If we were solely focused on teaching thinking at this level (with access to LLMs), how would we frame the educational path? It may look exactly like it does now, but it could also look very differently.

- Is there inherent value in humans learning specific skills?

If we get to a stage where LLMs can carry out most/all intellectual tasks better than humans, do we still want humans to learn these skills? My belief is yes, but I am frankly not sure how to motivate this answer.

Re: The threat is comfortable drift toward not understanding what you're doing

#128
But aren't you still going to have to convince other people to let you do it with their money/data/hardware/etc? The understanding necessary to make that argument well is pretty deep and is unaffected by AI.

I've been having a lot of fun vibe coding little interactive data visualizations so when I present the feature to stakeholders they can fiddle with it and really understand how it relates to existing data. I saw the agent leave a comment regarding Cramer's rule and yeah its a bit unsettling that I forgot what that is and haven't bothered to look it up, but I can tell from the graphs that its doing the correct thing.

There's now a larger gap between me and the code, but the chasm between me and the stakeholders is getting smaller and so far that feels like an improvement.

Re: The threat is comfortable drift toward not understanding what you're doing

#129

> Frank Herbert (yeah, I know I'm a nerd), in God Emperor of Dune, has a character observe: "What do such machines really do? They increase the number of things we can do without thinking. Things we do without thinking; there's the real danger." Herbert was writing science fiction. I'm writing about my office. The distance between those two things has gotten uncomfortably small. The author is a bit naive here: 1. Soc…

Current civilization is very complex. And it’s also fragile in some parts. When you build systems around instant communication and the availability of stuff built in the other side of the world on a fixed schedule, it’s very easy to disrupt. > 4. People will eventually get the hang of using AI to do the optimum amount of delegation such that they still retain what is necessary and delegate what is not necessary. Peop…

When technology progressed enough to allow for

1. outsourcing and offshoring (non deterministic, easy to disrupt)

2. cloud computing (mercy of the online service availability)

we had the same dilemma.

Outsource exactly what you think is not critical to the business. Offshore enough so that you gain good talent across the globe. Use cloud computing so that your company does not spend time working on solving problems that have already been solved. Assess what skills are required and what aren't - an e-commerce company doesn't need deep expertise in linux and postgres.

Companies that do this well outcompete other companies that obsess over details that are not core to their value proposition. This is how modern startups work: it is in finding that critical balance of buying products externally vs building only the crucial skills internally.

Re: The threat is comfortable drift toward not understanding what you're doing

#130
post #106

I like this article and it reads well, but I have to say, that to me it really reads as something written by an LLM. Probably under supervision by a human that knew what it should say. I don't know if I mind. Example. This paragraph, to me, has a eerily perfect rhythm. The ending sentence perfectly delivers the twist. Like, why would you write in perfect prose an argument piece in the science realm? > Unlike Alice, w…

Or maybe the author is just a competent writer.
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